Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

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Captain Kernow
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Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:26 pm

I bought one of the plain green (GW) ones, with the intention of running it as an industrial loco on 'Callow Lane'. Having planned a collaborative effort with Brian Harrap to either turn the existing OO wheels down or substitute them for a set of (also turned down) Gibson Lowmac wheels, the session had to be cancelled due to other domestic issues. In the meantime, however, Brian very kindly went ahead and did the conversion for me.

In the event, it proved too difficult to remove the OO wheels from their steel axles (they are extremely securely attached) without risking damage to the pin point axle ends, and the Lowmac wheels turned out not to be of a useful profile, so Brian adapted and turned down a spare set of wheels he had in stock.

The loco features a kind of 'split chassis' arrangement, with the 2mm pin point axles running in bearings that are attached to the motor leads and thus act as pick ups.

The loco ran very smoothly both before and after the conversion and it also runs fine on the layout, through pointwork etc.

Here are some photos taken on (still very unfinished :oops: ) Callow Lane.

IMG_1272.jpg

IMG_1273.jpg

IMG_1277.jpg


The brake gear is designed for OO gauge, so hasn't yet been adjusted for P4 gauge and refitted.

Some YouTube footage can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k0sEhdHyi4
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Tim M
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Re6/6
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Re6/6 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:22 pm

A friend bought his round yesterday and we put it on an '00' circle of track and it could run at a snails pace, brand new, straight from the box. Quite a remarkable little engine.
John

chris_mccarthy

Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby chris_mccarthy » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:45 pm

Have had one of these passed to me by a friend today for studying how to convert to P4 so your comments are helpful - albeit a bit dispiriting for those of us without serious machine tools or the knowledge of how to use them!

First, though, to basics. How on earth do you dismantle the chassis/driving gear? On short acquaintance I can't see how to do this without excessive poking and prodding of the dangly bits which, as the loco isn't mine, may be a way to lose a friend! I see four clips but a modicum of violence hasn't yet suggested any slack or movement. Is there a knack?

I concur that it is an absolutely superb runner out-of-the-box. Sets a benchmark for smoothness and controllability.

Chris McCarthy

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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:15 pm

I raised a question with Ultrascale whether they would do a conversion set for P4.

Brian has replied it depends on demand and thus the economics of it. He requests that if people did wish to see a replacement set of wheels they drop him a line either on his message board or by email.

If you do, can you mention it here so others can see if there is a ground swell of demand forming?
Mark Tatlow

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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby LesGros » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:12 am

Mark Tatlow wrote:
...Ultrascale... Brian... drop a lline... If you do, can you mention it here so others can see if there is a ground swell of demand forming

I have just registered an interest, in conversion wheels for the Sentinel, with Ultrascale .
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:24 am

As a matter of interest, what diameter are the wheels?
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:53 am

Sentinel wheels should be 2ft 6in dia.

Sharman wheels did this diameter, but presumably unavailable now?

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:37 am

And the Dapol OO wheels are indeed 10mm in diameter...
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:43 am

chris_mccarthy wrote:Have had one of these passed to me by a friend today for studying how to convert to P4 so your comments are helpful - albeit a bit dispiriting for those of us without serious machine tools or the knowledge of how to use them!

First, though, to basics. How on earth do you dismantle the chassis/driving gear? On short acquaintance I can't see how to do this without excessive poking and prodding of the dangly bits which, as the loco isn't mine, may be a way to lose a friend! I see four clips but a modicum of violence hasn't yet suggested any slack or movement. Is there a knack?

I concur that it is an absolutely superb runner out-of-the-box. Sets a benchmark for smoothness and controllability.

Chris McCarthy

Hi Chris - certainly the brake gear comes off in one piece (and will need widening before being replaced for P4).

Beyond that we will need to ask Brian Harrap to provide more detail, although it was planned to be a joint session at his place, using his lathe, we had to call it off, but Brian was keen to press on with the conversion anyway (and I was happy for him to do so ;) )

The cover plate for the gears etc. should be fairly straightforward to remove, based on what Brian said, and I need to remove it one more time, in order to unscrew the swivelling NEM coupler pockets.

I would also urge Ultrascale to look into producing a drop-in wheel set, even more so for the forthcoming Class 22. As you very rightly say, this sets a new benchmark for controllability, and if the mechanism of the Class 22 is based on that provided with the Sentinel, then those of us who like smooth shunting will be in for a treat.
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby David Knight » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:41 pm

What is the availability of these apart from the Model Rail offer?

Cheers,

David

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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:42 pm

davknigh wrote:What is the availability of these apart from the Model Rail offer?

They were specially commissioned by Model Rail magazine and are only available via the magazine. In practical terms, the stocks are held by Kernow Model Centre in Camborne and despatched from there, but as I understand it, all ordering and related correspondence is via the magazine (I say this, because mine was ordered for me by a friend).
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:50 pm

chris_mccarthy wrote:How on earth do you dismantle the chassis/driving gear? On short acquaintance I can't see how to do this without excessive poking and prodding of the dangly bits which, as the loco isn't mine, may be a way to lose a friend! I see four clips but a modicum of violence hasn't yet suggested any slack or movement. Is there a knack?

Bit more information now - the chassis retaining plate (which is plastic) is retained by a plastic clip at either end, and it's a simple matter to prise one end open slightly with a small screwdriver, which then allows the whole thing to be removed, exposing the axles and gears. Before you do this, however, you need to remove the brake gear assembly (one piece, which when removed can stand on it's 4 'legs', looking a bit like an odd stick insect!):

Sentinel chassis.JPG


I have now re-fitted my brake gear, and all that was needed to get it to fit nice and snugly against the wheels was to pare off some of the plastic on the inside faces. This narrows the width just sufficiently to re-fit it, with no detrimental effects on running or brake gear touching the wheels. Fortunately the width of the original OO wheels allows this without any further cutting and widening of the cross members.
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chris_mccarthy

Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby chris_mccarthy » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:03 pm

Good stuff, Tim, and timely for both me and doubless others who have acquired this little gem. Thanks.

I was able to stand my friend's one alongside my own Nu-Cast (was it?) plastic kit bodied variant from donkey's year's ago. There are slight detail differences (eg side louvres on the kit version and differences to the tank top) but you would have to peer pretty hard to identify them if you wern't a Sentinal afficianado. I used a SPUD Tenshodo motor unit in that one and despite damaging a gear when converting to P4, the resultant single axle drive is pretty powerful so I have never bothered to replace the gear! Under DCC there is little discernable difference in performance and smoothness with the DC analogue Dapol model out-of-it-box, but the Dapol probably just shades it. It will be instructive to see how that performs under DCC in due course.

I have one of the Kernow/Dapol Beattie Well Tanks on order so am crossing fingers that when it appears in a few month's time it will be equally as good - and not a swine to convert, given the clearences etc.

Chris

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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby nigelcliffe » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:11 pm

The split-frame with pin-point axles chassis design is very common in N. The usual conversion method from N to 2mm finescale faces similar issues to 00 to P4 for the Sentinel; the wheel flange has to be altered, and the wheel moved along the axle.

The former job is usually a quick spin in a lathe. The latter needs a fairly simple press tool which pushes the wheel along the stub axle. The stub axle needs to be supported near its point; drill a hole of about 0.7mm and then a slight countersink to widen it; that usually is enough to support the pin-point without damaging the pointed end. If doing lots, I'd have a press tool to push all the wheels to exactly the same place (I have such a tool, it assembles thousands of 2mm scale wagon wheels), but for just four wheels, I'd probably crank the wheel down slowly, checking how much its moved along the stub axle, then push a little further, etc.. until the correct position was reached.

I am tempted with one of the Sentinel's, particularly with the glowing reports of its running qualities. It could join my rather large loco shed of odd-ball industrial and departmental locomotives in 4mm scale. Only problem is that the loco fleet seems to be getting bigger than the freight stock fleet !

- Nigel

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Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Brian Harrap » Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:45 pm

This is what it looks like with P4 wheels
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chris_mccarthy

Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby chris_mccarthy » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:52 am

Cracked it, chaps! Took me just 40 mins, topside, to convert it to P4 once I had worked out the method below. Thanks to Tim and Brian for the inspiration to have a go - and its not even my loco!

1. Remove the body by gently levering it along its sides and it will readily upclip from the whole chassis .

2. Dismantle brake gear and remove gear cover plate, both as described by Tim.

3. Remove wheels from their pinpoint axleboxes, using your thumbnail to gently prise apart the axleboxes. Having removed them pull, with twisting motion, each wheel in turn and the respective stub axle will come slowly out of the Delrin? moulded axle/gear sleeve. Put sleeves aside for reuse and discard 00 wheels.

4. (In my case) take 2 pinpoint ended axles of P4 Lomac 10.5mm diameter wheels. Using a piercing saw, cut the axles and discard say 3mm from near the centre of each axle, thus shortening it to provide an air gap insulation when these P4 wheel sets are later pushed into the Delrin. You end up with 4 stub axles with their P4 wheels undisturbed.

5. Short the P4 wheels from axle stub to rim to provide for the split axle pickup. I used the old trick of winding around a suitable rod (ie smaller diameter than the 2mm axle) a fine (0.35mm) phosphor bronze wire into a 3 coil spring, leaving a short tail. I used the piercing saw and the edge of a needle file to cut a small slot into the back of the wheel rim/flange deep enough to take most of the wire but not right through the flange depth. Slip the spring (wiggle it) on to a stub axle and solder the wire tail onto the back of the rim/flange. Use a very hot iron and (in my case) 138deg solder with liquid flux. Just a quick dab with the iron should suffice. I have done this before and have never (dangerous...) had any problem with melted or distorted plastic centres - but don't hold the iron there. File the solder and the part-protruding wire flat to the back of the flange. Enough of the wire remains in the slot to give good connectivity. Repeat for all wheels.

Don't try soldering the other end of the wire to the axle as the transmitted heat along the axle WILL distort the fit of the wheel on its centre and render it useless - I speak from experience. Use the spring method or something similar, as it gives a good and reliable current collection (unless you choose to smother the spring in grease or other gunge - so don't) without heat .

I have a feeling that someone (Branchlines?) does sell a solid, uninsulated, wheel which, if four were put onto two axles, would obviate the need for the shorting described - just cut the axles as described above. I don't know whether they make 10.5mm diameter. Anyway, I don't have any.

6. Again using a twisting action, first insert one stub axle into the end of the Delrin sleeve nearest to the moulded gearwheel. Persevere, as it gets tighter the further in you push it. If necessary, put the axle point down on a material like sheet lead (to protect the point) and VERY GENTLY tap the sleeve into place. Offer it up often to the loco chassis and it will become obvious, by eye, when to stop as the alignment of geartrain and position of the pinpoint to the axlebox is clear to see. Twist the second stub axle into the other end of the sleeve and check for BOTH gauge and for an easy fit (slight end float) in the axlebox bearings. You will find there is a small degree of wheel adjustment possible on the axle to ensure that both these happy states are readily achieved. If the wheel has moved under the twisting action (some of mine did and some didn't) use a touch of Loctite 603 better to secure the wheel on the axle.

7. Insert the wheels back into the chassis by springing the axleboxes apart slightly using your thumbnail. Check for end float and recheck gauge. The chassis can now be tested in that state since the wheels are retained by the pinpoint bearings in the axleboxes so won't fall out. In my case, the loco ran just as smoothly in its P4 state as it did in 00.

8. With a sharp scalpel, carve off the inside edges of the brake blocks as mentioned by Tim.

9. I realised that I had to get the gear housing out to access the screws retaining the Dapol hook and bar couplings. This could have been done earlier but I didn't think of it so at this stage had to remove the wheels again. Deep in the chassis the housing is retained by four clips which each need a good shove against the elasticity of their plastic lugs to release them. Use some force with a thin flat bladed jeweller's scredriver, just sufficient to bend them out of the way before they break - it felt a bit like touch and go. Pull out the housing vertically and then unscrew the couplings from the chassis baseplate. Replace the housing by pressing it down and the clips should recapture it if all is well.

10. Replace the gear housing cover, wiggle the brake gear back into place and its four legs into their sockets - a bit tricky and you may need to swing the sand pipes sideways, out of the way to make space.

11. Cliup the body back into place.

12. Put on track, turn on the power - and enjoy!

Incidently, for those of a DCC persuasion (like me) it is helpful to find that the loco is designed to take a direct plug in 8 pin DCC decoder via a removable blanking plate.

The whole conversion took me shy of 40mins actual working time. This description has taken rather longer.

Hope it helps spur further P4 conversions of a most excellent little engine.

Chris McCarthy

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Brian Harrap
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Brian Harrap » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:13 am

The above description by Chris follows very much the route I took other than I chose to reprofile some stock Tenshodo wheels to get the correct 10mm dia end result. To 'short circuit' the wheel insulating bush I used my old favourite method of painting over the bush with Silver Conductive Paint as used in the electronics industry and also sold at Halfords for repairing heated windscreens. This 'paint' will also secure a loosish wheel on the axle. Regards, Brian.

chris_mccarthy

Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby chris_mccarthy » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:54 am

I have also used the conductive paint method but find it is most applicable when applied to wheels which are solid metal with plastic insulating axle bushes, such as Brian has used for his conversion.

Our "normal" P4 wheels with a metal tyre and moulded centres don't lend themselves well to it, in my view, as the paint necessarily has to be in good and quite extensive contact with the back of the tyre. This, in my opinion, makes it a bit vulnerable either to inadvertantly thickening the flange or to being rubbed off during subsequent wheel cleaning. In some powered designs, it may get in the way of smooth wiper pick-up contact to the back of the tyre. I have experienced all these issues in the past so that has probably coloured my opinion.

It certainly has its place on certain types of wheel, though, and I have one ancient motor bogie which has survived more than 25 years (probably nearer 30, now I think of it!) with an early Peco? branded version of such paint!

Chris

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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:26 pm

it may get in the way of smooth wiper pick-up contact to the back of the tyre.
But, don't you use the paint specifically to avoid having wipers?
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Keith
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby chris_mccarthy » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:48 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
it may get in the way of smooth wiper pick-up contact to the back of the tyre.
But, don't you use the paint specifically to avoid having wipers?


Hmm, this may be a senior moment but on the other hand I can clearly remember that happening - why and under what circs is lost in my mist of time. I wonder if it might have been something to do with my early and unsatisfactory pick up experimentation for lighting. No matter.

Generally, though, Keith, you must be right!

Chris

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Captain Kernow » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:33 pm

Ultrascale haven't been hanging around...
http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/show_notice.php?noteid=30
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iak
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby iak » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:08 pm

Oh dear my credit card has just run away...
Now this Sentinal that ended up in St. Helens he muses :D
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:17 pm

As Tim says, Ultrascale haven't been hanging about, and they have now released these - see the website. A small quantity are available ex - stock, after which it's normal delivery times.

Philip

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LesGros
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby LesGros » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:26 pm

Remember to scroll down past "Dapol" to foot of page and " Model Rail"

Cheerydoo
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:42 am

I am in the slightly surprising position of having the wheels from Ultrascale but am still awaiting delivey of the Model Rail Sentinel! Mid August seems to be the date for this so well done for Ultrascale in beating Model Rail to it.

The wheels are turned integral with some stub axles that are to be inserted into the central portion from the manufacturer's product - so this saves the need for gears etc. It will mean a bit more work for the user and the need to get the back to back right (Ultrascale have a data sheet on it which can be found at their listing for this wheelset.

All this has had a dramatic affect on the price for the wheels - down to £3.75 for brass and a £5 for nickle silver!
Last edited by Mark Tatlow on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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