LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

DougN
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LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:47 am

Hi all, I have been at it again. Rather than finishing off the V2's I have been distracted by the curious strange beasts that are the G6. (Ok I for some reason can't get enthused to get on with them again!)

They are a 0-4-4 NER well tank locomotive. They have so many variations it is not funny with different wheel sizes 5'0", 5'3", 5'6". Different splashers solid or open and then depends on the size of the wheel. Locations of sanding boxes of which there is a couple of types including the square boxes that move around on the foot plate. Then there is the Hawthorn (?) built locos that have integral boxes with the front splashers which have to be scratch built.

The kit has a few challenges in building it, other than the bits of scratch building for the variations and modification for the larger wheels, there is forming the curving cab over the cab fronts, I still havn't got these to the standard I am happy with. One additional one I am having is I only have the written instructions. I need the drawings of the internal valve gear. I expect that there was a exploded diagram but I don't have it! So if any one has a unbuilt kit I would appreciate a scan!

I'll grab some photos of the progress one night! :thumb

Thanks in advance
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Will L
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Will L » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:03 am

DougN wrote:...The kit has a few challenges in building it...

Who's kit?

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:32 am

As per header?
Regards
Keith
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Will L
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Will L » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:39 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:As per header?

Ah yes. Not awake yet this morning.

Daddyman
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:32 am

DougN wrote:

They are a 0-4-4 NER well tank locomotive. They have so many variations it is not funny with different wheel sizes 5'0", 5'3", 5'6". Different splashers solid or open and then depends on the size of the wheel. Locations of sanding boxes of which there is a couple of types including the square boxes that move around on the foot plate. Then there is the Hawthorn (?) built locos that have integral boxes with the front splashers which have to be scratch built.

Is there a question there? I think there was a British Railway Journal article on the class some years ago, written by Barnfield if I recall. Sorry, can't find my copy to supply an issue number.

No. 63 is a good one to model as photos exist of both sides - though see below on springs.

DougN wrote: The kit has a few challenges in building it, other than the bits of scratch building for the variations and modification for the larger wheels, there is forming the curving cab over the cab fronts, I still havn't got these to the standard I am happy with. One additional one I am having is I only have the written instructions. I need the drawings of the internal valve gear. I expect that there was a exploded diagram but I don't have it! So if any one has a unbuilt kit I would appreciate a scan!


You need to be careful bending the cab, yes, especially around the top of the cab entry aperture. The bigger problem will be the springs above the wheels (and a good argument for choosing a loco with underslung springs): you need to work out how to fix them to body or chassis (in P4 the latter may be easier than it is in narrower gauges), but the spring castings are the wrong shape and too big in the kit, which compounds the problems of fitting them. Additionally, on the prototype the springs were set into the smokebox clothing - you can see this on undressed J77s in scrapyard photos. Without that inset on the model, careful filing of the rear of the front spring is probably the only option. I set about trying to create work-arounds for these issues, including making some new springs and casting them in resin, but I didn't feel it was worth the candle for a model of something that was outside my period and areas of interest, so mine has been on the naughty step for a few years.

I don't recall any diagram of the inside motion, but you could ask LRM.

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:54 pm

Daddyman wrote:
DougN wrote:

They are a 0-4-4 NER well tank locomotive. They have so many variations it is not funny with different wheel sizes 5'0", 5'3", 5'6". Different splashers solid or open and then depends on the size of the wheel. Locations of sanding boxes of which there is a couple of types including the square boxes that move around on the foot plate. Then there is the Hawthorn (?) built locos that have integral boxes with the front splashers which have to be scratch built.


Is there a question there? I think there was a British Railway Journal article on the class some years ago, written by Barnfield if I recall. Sorry, can't find my copy to supply an issue number.


It was issue 41. I have it open on the work bench at the moment

Daddyman wrote:No. 63 is a good one to model as photos exist of both sides - though see below on springs.


DougN wrote: The kit has a few challenges in building it, other than the bits of scratch building for the variations and modification for the larger wheels, there is forming the curving cab over the cab fronts, I still havn't got these to the standard I am happy with. One additional one I am having is I only have the written instructions. I need the drawings of the internal valve gear. I expect that there was a exploded diagram but I don't have it! So if any one has a unbuilt kit I would appreciate a scan!


Daddyman wrote:You need to be careful bending the cab, yes, especially around the top of the cab entry aperture. The bigger problem will be the springs above the wheels (and a good argument for choosing a loco with underslung springs): you need to work out how to fix them to body or chassis (in P4 the latter may be easier than it is in narrower gauges), but the spring castings are the wrong shape and too big in the kit, which compounds the problems of fitting them. Additionally, on the prototype the springs were set into the smokebox clothing - you can see this on undressed J77s in scrapyard photos. Without that inset on the model, careful filing of the rear of the front spring is probably the only option. I set about trying to create work-arounds for these issues, including making some new springs and casting them in resin, but I didn't feel it was worth the candle for a model of something that was outside my period and areas of interest, so mine has been on the naughty step for a few years.

I don't recall any diagram of the inside motion, but you could ask LRM.


That's what I suspected regarding the inside motion. So I will have to do some scratch building I suspect. This could be further complicated by the kit I am building in that it was commenced by another modeller here in Australia. I seem to be a bit of a sucker for the challenge of kits like this.

The descriptions and numbering on the kit is actually quite good but you really have to have photos to get it any where near a actual loco. I have chosen 672 which was seen around York in the 1920's, Ok there is a photo in the BRJ 41 and in the RCTS green bible. I also have the Yeadon's edition on the G5's and G6's which has come in very handy. I think it has had a reboiler so has a smooth (ie rivet less) smoke box. The kit has a could of challenges I found with the smoke box. Forming them is always fun, I have used Dave Bradwells technique of a brass wire ring to the back of the wrapper rather than just "filing a chamfer" to the wrappers. Ok I could have used the wrong parts or in the wrong order as these were all lose in the bottom of the kit box (due to being started by others)

Regarding forming the cab
Yes it is a bit of nightmare... I am still battling with it I think there is going to be some filling and filing to say the least! I havent fixed it down until I can get the shape closer. As this all needs to be soldered on with the handrail knobs already installed, then the cab beading, then the window bars to the rear and beading to the front windows.... All very challenging modelling.

Regarding the Springs
Ummm I am not sure I even have the castings. My local Model shop has a collection of Alboin Brass sections (along with my own growing supplies of spares etc) I may see if I can scratch build some thing. Nothing like a bit of a challenge!

The above could say I am not enjoying the build, I actually am as it is such a strange looking locomotive. It has really grown on me.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

charliemiller77
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby charliemiller77 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:10 am

Hi Doug,
I hope you can get the kit to behave and make good progress despite its problems as outlined in all the above.
Perhaps you are aware of a 6 page article written by J.H.Wright in Model Railways July 1979 which summarises most of the variations, with drawings of each , all hand drawn in his usual clear style. (no spokes etc.).
He was asking then if anyone knew of the whereabouts of a GA so he could find details of the valve gear, no doubt Steve Barnfield did at a later date.
From this ; 672 is an 1879 Darlington built loco , 5'0" wheels, and he has it listed at Leeds at the end of 31-12-20, so it could well have a run to York.
I could try to scan or take photos of the pages if that works and post them here?
Picture quality is not so good given the age of the article. There is also a drawing of the autocoach for push pull working.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:07 pm

charliemiller77 wrote:Hi Doug,
I hope you can get the kit to behave and make good progress despite its problems as outlined in all the above.
Perhaps you are aware of a 6 page article written by J.H.Wright in Model Railways July 1979 which summarises most of the variations, with drawings of each , all hand drawn in his usual clear style. (no spokes etc.).
He was asking then if anyone knew of the whereabouts of a GA so he could find details of the valve gear, no doubt Steve Barnfield did at a later date.
From this ; 672 is an 1879 Darlington built loco , 5'0" wheels, and he has it listed at Leeds at the end of 31-12-20, so it could well have a run to York.
I could try to scan or take photos of the pages if that works and post them here?
Picture quality is not so good given the age of the article. There is also a drawing of the autocoach for push pull working.


I don't think this kit has "problems" as people are intimating, although given its age and that the artwork was probably hand drawn it is probably not up to the standards of more recent kits, especially those touted as state of the art (although some of those can be quite difficult to build).

The curved cab roof is a particular issue with some GNR prototypes, but that is not the kits fault, although some sort of jig could possibly have been added to the artwork and hopefully the instructions give some guidance.

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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:07 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
charliemiller77 wrote: I don't think this kit has "problems" as people are intimating

He says, before going on to list lots of problems...
What people were listing above were problems with building the kit (curving the roof, etc) which as you say are not its fault. However, the kit also has shortcomings, which are its fault: a horror show of a dome and safety valve cover, and springs which are so oversize that they cannot be fitted. On that last point, you'll notice that no photographs of built models shows the springs fitted - even the one on LRM's website has no springs (and should have - it's the one that fell into the South [edit] Tyne at Alston, springs and all...).
Last edited by Daddyman on Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:09 pm

charliemiller77 wrote:Perhaps you are aware of a 6 page article written by J.H.Wright in Model Railways July 1979 which summarises most of the variations, with drawings of each , all hand drawn in his usual clear style. (no spokes etc.).
He was asking then if anyone knew of the whereabouts of a GA so he could find details of the valve gear, no doubt Steve Barnfield did at a later date.
From this ; 672 is an 1879 Darlington built loco , 5'0" wheels, and he has it listed at Leeds at the end of 31-12-20, so it could well have a run to York.
I could try to scan or take photos of the pages if that works and post them here?
Picture quality is not so good given the age of the article. There is also a drawing of the autocoach for push pull working.

Charlie that would be brilliant if you could scan and upload here. If not an upload here, a emailed copy would be great. I find as I really started modelling in the 1990's mags from the 70's are hard to source. I know a few people with collections who are willing to dig out issues and I am thankful to them as I am for your offer!

Daddyman and Joel's discussion re short comings of kits. As I have said my challenges have been increased by the being previously started. Have I made mistakes, yes, do I write these things up with how I fixed the situation yes. I hope these write ups help others to have ago at building the kits. So these pages grow and help and encourage others. The main thing is people are aware BEFORE hiting the problems and form their own solutions.

The main thing is, it is a live recording and as new articles appear or new photos they can be recorded and listed.
Eg we now have BRJ 41, Model railways July 1979, the RCTS bible, Yeadon register, NER locos by Ken Hoole. There is more here than listed in my kit instructions.

I do promise to grab a photo or 3 before it gets too much further, work has clobbered me this week and having some outside engagements sucked away even more time. Life has been very complicated over the last 12months mostly to do with an estate I am the executor for. Thankfully the bigest time thief has just about come to a close!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

charliemiller77
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby charliemiller77 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:48 am

I have taken photos as it’s easier for me than scanning at present.
Hopefully there is something in the article to help you.
Incidentally I’ve just noticed one photo is of no. 71. I have made a model of it in its later guise a class 290, rebuilt as an 0-6-0T.
This was from a Lancaster whitemetal kit with an etched chassis for which I used CSB suspension. It’s a beautifully smooth runner.
So here is the article,
AC66AFA8-9AA9-4AF4-AED5-F26A25AC9EC4.jpeg

6260C9D4-5FFE-451D-817E-913BC540B27C.jpeg

42E99F54-5621-4FF1-B547-2508C0DD3DDE.jpeg

39162FE6-0EF9-4E9A-AD82-50662D9DA5EC.jpeg

45606C18-808D-4D61-BBFF-78FE88497054.jpeg

224F5BB4-FF06-4FB7-AB78-3D0E2FE4DB78.jpeg
Last edited by charliemiller77 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:50 am

charliemiller77 wrote: and for some reason I can only get pages on in reverse order ???

That is because you have not used the "place inline" button.
That button puts the attachments into the text at the cursor position, so in any order you want.
If you just leave them as you did then the order is determined by the order of uploading, last first!

If you want you can go back in via the edit button and use the "place inline" to change the displayed order.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

charliemiller77
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby charliemiller77 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:17 am

Thanks for the tip.
I’ve tried on my phone but still no joy. Maybe I’ll try on laptop later. Meanwhile they are all reading ok as long as you start at the bottom.
By the way I picked up a whole bunch of these mags and Model Railway Constructors for £2 at an auction a few years ago. I was the only bidder. !
Some brilliant articles back in the day.

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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:47 pm

Thanks ever so much Charlie. This does answer a number of questions I have yet to deal with.

I am aware that D&S did one of the coaches but they are hard to come by. Danny being semi retired form the regular manufacturing let alone the difficultly of being in Australia etc does make sourcing one difficult.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Daddyman
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:31 pm

Langley do the autocar without bogies, but the etches aren't the finest:
https://www.langleymodels.co.uk/awd1/in ... ct_id=5656

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:45 am

Thanks Daddyman,

I have placed an order for one. I have been rather snowed under at work and then last weekend I was at the AMRA exhibition all weekend at Caulfield. I did however spend a heap of time building up and detailing the G6. Not the greatest photo below. I some how have ended up with the motor/gearbox jambing up for some reason. I have installed a Fire box front and this maybe what is causing the issue! Also the boiler/ smoke box has lifted at the front off the foot plate. I am also trying to detail the buffer beams with the auto gear. As per Jeremy's great photo. Once the cab has a fireman and driver it is almost impossible to tell there is no controls or back head in there. This would need to be scratch built and then glued into the back of the boiler as the cab roof/ sides and spectacle plates are

IMG-20220823-WA0005.jpeg


Once I have completed more on the loco I will write up some more! .
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:52 am

Ha. last night as I was at home just before dinner. I pulled the boiler out of the loco body to look at the issue of why the boiler would not sit down. I have found that the gearbox was clashing against the firebox front I have installed. SO this weekend I will bring out the dremel and grinding disk and take off half a millimeter around where the gearbox sits which should resolve the issue. (Here was I thinking I was doing the right thing installing the fire box front!)

I also found last night that I have to open up all the bearing surfaces as the drivers are way too tight... I will also need to open up the coupling rods as they are way too tight as well.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

charliemiller77
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby charliemiller77 » Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:39 am

Glad you’ve found the cause and solution for the gap.
Re opening up bearings though be careful not to overdo it. I’ve just been operating a layout where a loco had so much slop it’s wheels could be moved almost 10 degrees relative to each other. Needless to say it was binding and ran terribly so is due a total overhaul of wheels and rods.
I was pondering your photo above and at first thought the quartering was out , but on closer inspection I see the drivers , and chassis therefore , are sitting at an angle to the footplate as the brake rodding shows. Was this just a temporary thing due to it being not screwed together so misaligned for photo shoot or is there an issue to be fixed ?
Keep going, the results are looking good so far.
I have an increasing interest in the early locos and find the variety fascinating.
Charlie

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:38 pm

Thanks Charlie, the problem is the boiler is very tight in the cab opening, the bottom of the fire box front is pushing down the gearbox which is jamming down the compensation on the second axle. Which means the whole lot can't sit level. So once I take off the material on the Fire box front should solve all these problems. As I am finishing the loco started by Bill Gorman, I have found his builds start out way too tight. A full strip down open the bearings and re assemble should have it be able to free wheel. These is also some surface rust on the Gibson crankpin bearings which is also needing to be removed. I will point out that it is better to start too tight than too loose!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Daddyman
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:35 pm

DougN wrote: I am finishing the loco started by Bill Gorman

Oh! You too!
DougN wrote: I have found his builds start out way too tight.

Oh, you too.

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:38 am

Well other than not getting many Photos :? ... I sat down for an hours modelling yesterday. I took about 1.5mm off the bottom of the new fire box front which released the gearbox & allowed the required movement of the gearbox/ motor to allow it to run. So flushed with that success, I started opening out the rods which allowed the wheels to turn better but not to the stage I like which is just about rolling down a slope. I looked at his problem and realised I hadn't checked the back to backs... which were overly wide! 17.75.... AHHHH next problem. It was the hornboxes where over width to the external face of the chassis.... SO in turn pulled them out and filed off about .5 to 1mm! to allow them to not jamb to the back of the wheels. For completeness I removed the back boss off the Gibson wheels. This has resulted in the wheels moving freely (I also opened out the axle bearing with a reamer and then spun a round file in the bearing to remove any burs). I was happy with the way this was all coming along so I have Locktite'd the final drive onto the axle and gave the motor a spin.... all working very nicely.

At this point life intervened again with my son's birthday get together.... I now need to finish off the detailing of the body and clean up the chassis for a coat of paint after having some pickups manufactured!

I would like to think I can get it just about done this week ready for painting.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:14 am

Daddyman wrote:Langley do the autocar without bogies, but the etches aren't the finest:
https://www.langleymodels.co.uk/awd1/in ... ct_id=5656

Amazing work by Langley i have received the etches in just over a week and a bit. Pretty good for postage to Australia, it has been running extremely slowly over and after COVID.

Daddyman do you have any suggestions for the trailer? My intention is to build it as late in their life, LNER period. As the loco is just about complete construction wise i will be onto painting. So the auto car will be next to be built!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Daddyman
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:19 pm

DougN wrote: Daddyman do you have any suggestions for the trailer?

What kind of suggestions do you need? Mark Tatlow showed his NER-condition one on here a few months ago, and I showed my LNER one for contrast a couple of posts later. That should tell you everything you need to know, but happy to answer any specific questions.
Are you in the NERA? I'm giving a talk on modelling ex-NER carriages in the LNER period in late September on Zoom. Not sure if non-members are allowed in but I/you could find out.
Spanner in the works for you is that by the time the BTPs were withdrawn the D.116s seem to have still been in NER colours, which will be fun to paint! If they had been repainted they were - allegedly - in ersatz teak, another tricky livery...

DougN
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby DougN » Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:36 am

Thanks for the above. The NER livery will be a bit of a challenge!

Unfortunately Zoom meetings are a little more complicated by the time difference (well I am 10 Hours ahead at the moment !) Its even more problematic in that I spend so much time at work. :cry: So if it is from say 8pm your time its 6am here. I would be incredibly interested in hearing your knowledge on the subject.

I may join NERA... another of my problems is being time poor and not getting to read the subscriptions I already have and there is only 5 of them!

I have just found the Blog and Marks photos and comments from Both of you. The kit is the D&S version that is on that thread. I have the Langley so It will be interesting to compare the differences. Hopefully I can start the coach soon... though I don't think it will be ready for the running after noon at David Clifts on the 17th! Well MJT need to get me the bogies as well but if they were as efficient as Langley they could be in the mail today!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Daddyman
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Re: LRM/ Steven Barnfield LNER G6

Postby Daddyman » Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:07 am

DougN wrote: The kit is the D&S version that is on that thread. I have the Langley so It will be interesting to compare the differences.

Yes, sorry - I thought you were asking about suggestions re the prototype, which is what people go wrong on most often. I can't remember what the Langley kit is like, but I seem to recall they split the roof for the clerestory, so you'll have fun there. Mark has done it that way, though.


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