Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

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zebedeesknees
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Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:26 pm

One of these kits from 2011 has recently arrived on my workbench.
It is a OO rigid version, but it is intended to be S4, CSB, and battery/rc when completed.
But well before that(!) there is no cab interior detail in the kit, nor can I find any pictures.
Has anyone any experience of this kit, or photos that they are willing to share please?

Ted.

Daddyman
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Daddyman » Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:35 pm

There's one in the Green Book, Part 5, opposite p.203.

I have my dad's Bachmann one here too, so if a photo of that would help, just ask.

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zebedeesknees
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:31 pm

Daddyman wrote:There's one in the Green Book, Part 5, opposite p.203.

I have my dad's Bachmann one here too, so if a photo of that would help, just ask.

My copy of that Green Book arrived just a few days ago, and I hadn't found that photo - thanks!
But any resemblance to the parts in the kit appear to be entirely co-incidental.

I cannot so far find the later number(s) of 976, though I have the Dow book on order which might help. Judging by the depth of the cab windows it is not a J11/3 which my build is intended to be, so that photo and the Bachmann version may not be the same as the one I am building.

A photo of the Bachmann cab if it is different to the one in the Green Book would be greatly appreciated, though I suspect that the /3 variant may not have been the same.

Many thanks,

Ted.

Crepello
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Crepello » Sat Feb 19, 2022 8:25 pm

Assuming none of the parameters are particular to my session, try this:

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=S&id=601011004&loco=976

Daddyman
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Daddyman » Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:59 am

There seem to be tables in the J11 chapter of Part 5 giving later LNER numbers and rebuild to J11/3 (whatever that is). With Crepello's LNER number it should be possible to work it out.

Here's the Bachmann. No idea if it's different from the one in Part 5.
20220220_074721_resized.jpg
20220220_074719_resized.jpg
20220220_074658_resized.jpg
20220220_074652_resized.jpg


Not sure if the backhead is missing in your kit only, or in all Gibson J11s. If the former, the AGW catalogue might list one?

Jeremy Suter
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Jeremy Suter » Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:12 am

Hi Ted

You don't mention in the original post what period you want to model the loco.
Let me know if you have a loco in mind and will see what I have of it.

The Robinson designed GCR locos pretty much all had the same back heads, which didn't change except for the addition of the I think its called the intensiflow oil feeder in Late LNER days which is a square panel about a 12 x 12 inches with oil feeders on and went at the top of the left hand side of the back head. The pipes it fed ran round the side of the back head through the cab front and sloped down along the fire box and boiler to the cylinders.
The oil feeder can be seen in this picture of 64332 on Gorton Works.
img20220220_09365308.jpg

Not all were fitted with it as 64297 here shows. Basically they are fitted on engines converted to piston valves from slide valves.
img20220220_09333803.jpg

64362 is a piston valve engine seen here at Penistone 3.6.52. The piston tales can be seen on the smokebox front and the oil pipes running along the boiler.
img20220220_09520885.jpg

Back head of 976 as built, Neilson works photo. She became 5976 in 1923 and 4283 in the 1946 renumbering and then 64283 in BR days
img20220220_09042736.jpg

Good back head photos a hard to find but a few GC locos here show good detail. All are in GC days.
This is 1035. A D9 440 which was the passenger version of the J11.Taken at Guide Bridge station in 1920.
img20220220_09074118.jpg

These two are 442 C4 number 192 at taken at Leicester shed in 1922.
img20220220_09134818.jpg

img20220220_09145158.jpg

billbedford
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:40 am

zebedeesknees wrote:
Daddyman wrote:There's one in the Green Book, Part 5, opposite p.203.


I cannot so far find the later number(s) of 976, though I have the Dow book on order which might help. Judging by the depth of the cab windows it is not a J11/3 which my build is intended to be, so that photo and the Bachmann version may not be the same as the one I am building.


The boiler of the J11/3 was pitched 4" higher than the original, hence the smaller spectacle windows.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk

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zebedeesknees
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:02 pm

Thank you all for the replies! A great help.
Daddyman, I wonder if the Bachmann wheels are correct? There is some conflicting info out there, the online pix where identifiable all look like 15sp pb, and 5'2"which no 4mm manufacturer offers. The Gibson instructions specifically say that those in the kit are accurate, but they are 16sp.

Great pix from Jeremy, what are those patches on the lower cab sides? I can guess, but does anyone know?

And thanks Bill, one of my reasons for choosing the /3 variant is that those were introduced in 1941 with piston instead of slide valves, forcing the boiler upwards to clear, leaving me more room for the motor in the firebox!

Great stuff...

Ted.

Jeremy Suter
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Jeremy Suter » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:48 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:
Great pix from Jeremy, what are those patches on the lower cab sides? I can guess, but does anyone know?

Ted.

The patches are covering rust holes .

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PeteT
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby PeteT » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:55 pm

Jeremy's photo of 64257 looks like the spokes are in line across the hub, so an even number - but I count it to 14 not 16!

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby davebradwell » Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:21 pm

If you look at other sites you'll come up with 15sp, pb(probably). Unless the photo is square-on it's impossible to define the wheels.

You can put the Gibson 16spoked wheels in a box with the 20 spoked V2 wheels.

Looks like Bachmann have it right but the wheel face completely lacks shape.

DaveB

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JackBlack
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby JackBlack » Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:33 pm

Jeremy Suter wrote:
zebedeesknees wrote:
Great pix from Jeremy, what are those patches on the lower cab sides? I can guess, but does anyone know?

Ted.

The patches are covering rust holes .


Nice detail to model!


Nick Allport
CLAG


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zebedeesknees
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:39 pm

JackBlack wrote:
Jeremy Suter wrote:
zebedeesknees wrote:
Great pix from Jeremy, what are those patches on the lower cab sides? I can guess, but does anyone know?

Ted.

The patches are covering rust holes .

Nice detail to model!


You know Nick, the response is an original Claggie "Go on then!"

Ted.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:46 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:Thank you all for the replies! A great help.
Daddyman, I wonder if the Bachmann wheels are correct? There is some conflicting info out there, the online pix where identifiable all look like 15sp pb, and 5'2"which no 4mm manufacturer offers. The Gibson instructions specifically say that those in the kit are accurate, but they are 16sp.

Great pix from Jeremy, what are those patches on the lower cab sides? I can guess, but does anyone know?

And thanks Bill, one of my reasons for choosing the /3 variant is that those were introduced in 1941 with piston instead of slide valves, forcing the boiler upwards to clear, leaving me more room for the motor in the firebox!

Great stuff...

Ted.


Ted,

Sharman list a 5' 2" 15 spoke pb but are out of stock.

They have been known to produce a batch of one size and tyre profile for a big enough order, if you could round up some other modellers who wanted them.

Jol

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:07 pm

Some progress, it looks like 64314 might be the one, as there are good pictures of both sides on the Rail-Online website. Now the tender...

According to RCTS book 5 the water pick-up gear was removed from those tenders so fitted commencing 1939, and that is how I wish to model this one, but..

What did the top of a 4,000 gal. tender look like with the gear removed? And without the huge piles of coal seen in the majority of pictures?

The Gibson kit includes optional castings for the covers over the water pick-up gear and rodding, plus boxes over the dome; if these were originally fitted, were they removed along with the scoop, or left in place?

Jeremy's pictures have been a great help. but are there any of such a tender top rear without a pile of coal obscuring the detail?

Thanks,

Ted.

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Daddyman » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:52 pm

I may be getting things totally wrong here, knowing nothing about the GC.... However, the D49s received 4000-gallon ex-GC tenders on which the water scoop equipment had been removed already, or was removed tout de suite by Darlo. There is an Isinglass drawing of ex-GC tenders fitted to D49s which I can't currently find, but it will show the tops of the tenders. Alternatively, photo NS206722A on the Transport Library site (search through google - the TL search is rubbish) shows a rear view of a GC tender coupled to a D49. And this photo might also help (NS206722A suggests little has changed in preservation):
P1340867.JPG

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:28 pm

That's a great pic, thanks, but reasons to be suspicious.. The lifting eyes are not shown on the Gibson drawings, and the instructions suggest that the filler retained a 'D' shaped lid after the removal. On the other hand, those triangular plates on the rhs indicate that something may have been there in the past.
Also, the rearmost pair of sideplate supports, this side of the coal space, are the same as the other six within the coal space in the Gibson drawing, whereas those in the picture could well be the result of the rebuilding when the water gear was removed. - Or subsequently!

Thank you,

Ted.

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Jeremy Suter » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:35 pm

Lovely picture of the back of a GC type tender which is an ex ROD one as per the two holes in the buffer beam for the chain hook. They were not fitted with a water Scoop hence the round filler. The pipe on the left hand side is a later fitting by BR or preservation I have not seen one before. Converted water scoop tenders still carried the D shape lid until the end although otherwise all is the same as the J11 tenders

Daddyman
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby Daddyman » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:59 pm

Thanks, Jeremy. So this one is also ex-ROD? I'm sure the Isinglass drawing lists the provenance of all the D49 tenders, but my copy is still hiding.
GC tender.PNG


I see only one b.beam hole on both tenders.

Anyway, sounds like you've answered Ted's question.

billbedford
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:04 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:Some progress, it looks like 64314 might be the one, as there are good pictures of both sides on the Rail-Online website. Now the tender...

What did the top of a 4,000 gal. tender looks like with the gear removed? And without the huge piles of coal seen in the majority of pictures?


According to RCTS, 64314 had a 3250-gallon tender, not that any can tell the difference from the outside. Its original tender was one without a scoop, but there's no information about whether it acquired one with a scoop later.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk

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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:05 pm

billbedford wrote:
zebedeesknees wrote:Some progress, it looks like 64314 might be the one, as there are good pictures of both sides on the Rail-Online website. Now the tender...

What did the top of a 4,000 gal. tender looks like with the gear removed? And without the huge piles of coal seen in the majority of pictures?


According to RCTS, 64314 had a 3250-gallon tender, not that anyone can tell the difference from the outside. Its original tender was one without a scoop, but there's no information about whether it acquired one with a scoop later.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk

billbedford
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:05 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:Some progress, it looks like 64314 might be the one, as there are good pictures of both sides on the Rail-Online website. Now the tender...

What did the top of a 4,000 gal. tender looks like with the gear removed? And without the huge piles of coal seen in the majority of pictures?


According to RCTS, 64314 had a 3250-gallon tender, not that anyone can tell the difference from the outside. Its original tender was one without a scoop, but there's no information about whether it acquired one with a scoop later.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk

billbedford
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:52 am

Scrub the last post. I've found a note in Yeadon that says that all the J11/3 received 4000-gallon tenders. However, there were four exceptions, not including 64319.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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zebedeesknees
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby zebedeesknees » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:38 pm

billbedford wrote:Scrub the last post. I've found a note in Yeadon that says that all the J11/3 received 4000-gallon tenders. However, there were four exceptions, not including 64319.

Thanks Bill, but looking through the pictures on Rail-Online, it would appear that these locos played musical tenders all the time. Some of those listed in the RCTS pt. 5 as having the smaller tanks clearly have the larger one and vice-versa. I get my eye in by comparing the vertical distance between the top of the cab side sheet and the beading on the tender flare.

Granted it is difficult to tell the sizes apart, since the 3250 Gal. versions, once the coal rails were plated over look so similar that one needs one of those and a 4000 gal. next to each other to see a difference. The Gibson kit and the drawings therewith show a 1mm or 3" difference in the tank depth.

However, none of this is relevant to my original question, 'was the pickup furniture removed from the tank top next to the filler and along the side of the coal plate/flare on the rhs on removal of the pickup scoop from those tenders so fitted?' And can I see a picture?

In case this isn't sufficiently complicated, the drawings in the kit show a 3250 gal. tender as originally built with open coal rails and a circular filler top... And 64314 is shown in the Green Book as having a 3250 gal. tender, while the pictures in Rail-Online show what I firmly believe to be the larger one.

Ted.

billbedford
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Re: Gibson GCR 9J/LNER J11 'Pom Pom' kit

Postby billbedford » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:07 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:However, none of this is relevant to my original question, 'was the pickup furniture removed from the tank top next to the filler and along the side of the coal plate/flare on the rhs on removal of the pickup scoop from those tenders so fitted?' And can I see a picture?


I would say, probably not.

Think of it this way. The scoop operating gear would have been dismantled at every general shopping. Once the decision was taken that these locos didn't need a scoop, then the operating gear would likely be dismantled and just not replaced. This would leave the trunking in situ, and it would only be replaced if the tank top plating or the division plate needed renewing.

I think that once this amount of work was needed on a 50-year-old tender then it's likely that the whole thing would have been sent for scrap and a slightly better one found.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa-models.co.uk


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