Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Sat May 01, 2021 2:00 pm

Thanks for the kind comments, Gents.
Morgan. The hand rails will be fitted before painting, but the smoke deflectors are intended to be attached by clips over the hand rails and two bolts through the footplate, so they can be loose for painting.
Terry. Other than the smoke deflectors, the body will be in one piece. The friend who is going to paint, line and weather the loco has advised that he's happy with this arrangement. The chassis, which I will paint, can be completely dismantled for this purpose (and future maintenance).
Dave.

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby triumph3 » Sat May 08, 2021 9:42 am

If it’s OK with Dave, I can post the painting, lining and weathering of the Scot on this thread. I have previously painted a few of Dave's locos including an Ivatt Class 2 ( photo attached). I have also already painted a re built Scot which is a Brassmaster kit which I bought fully built in P4 but it was painted in 1947 LMS livery so it was stripped and then re painted it, lined it and renumbered as 46148 ( a loco I was pulled by in the 1960s). A light weathering finished it of.
Attachments
E881F60D-C770-436D-895F-E999E7199010.jpeg
129847CF-CBF9-4301-8D95-806D601AD431.jpeg

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Sat May 08, 2021 10:56 am

Progress remains slow - I'm sure that was a snail just overtaking - but there is some.
The smokebox door and boiler hand rails are now fixed. When processing the photos, I noticed that the top lamp iron had got bent - probably when I knocked the loco off the work tray into my lap this morning. I caught the loco between my knees on its way to the floor, so it was nearly a catastrophe. A bent lamp iron is a small price to pay. It has now been straightened out.
Scot_191.JPG

Scot_192.JPG

Scot_193.JPG

Outside steam pipe covers, front vacuum stand pipe and some bits on the rear beam still to do.
Dave.

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johndarch
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby johndarch » Sat May 08, 2021 11:32 am

I'm glad it's not just me that has clumsy moments Dave. The Scot is looking great.

Terry
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Terry » Sat May 08, 2021 1:41 pm

triumph3 wrote:If it’s OK with Dave, I can post the painting, lining and weathering of the Scot on this thread. I have previously painted a few of Dave's locos including an Ivatt Class 2 ( photo attached).

I would certainly find that very interesting and helpful, as you say as long as Dave is happy. Your painting and weathering skills are quite exquisite!

Those last pictures look absolutely superb Dave. So glad you caught that beauty in time!

Terry

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat May 08, 2021 4:54 pm

Why not just start a new topic in this section, https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=17, where it belongs. Using the correct subforum helps others to find it, in the future.
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Keith
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Paul Hutfield
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Paul Hutfield » Sun May 09, 2021 3:20 pm

Fantastic stuff Dave, your Scot truly is a work of art! Plenty of thought provoking idea's too and a very concise build thread. Terry's already beaten me too it, but very pleased to hear it didn't end up on the floor. You may feel progress rather slow, but I'm struggling to think of many other modellers out there creating comparative masterpieces in P4 in such a short timescale. John Darch is one name very worthy of a mention as another inspirational modeller producing similarly impressive models and again due much credit for documenting his builds here, and elsewhere.

Keith, I understand why you've suggested that David set's up another thread and he has indeed posted his own work elsewhere in the past. However on this occasion I think it's a apt suggestion that David posts the results here of the final painting and weathering to complete Dave's incredible build.

Great work chaps all round, very inspirational stuff!

Paul

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Sun May 09, 2021 8:42 pm

Thanks, Paul.
Yes, I don't see any problem with David C posting work on painting, lining and weathering the loco on here as it'll be a continuation of the overall build. Nobody should hold their breath though.
Dave.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon May 10, 2021 11:38 am

Dave. I'm pretty sure Royal Scots both original and rebuilt are not designed to bounce. Good save though and I'm glad there wasn't much damage. I had a OOPs moment yesterday. I just picked up the underframe of my Brake Third to apply some weathering with an airbrush and as I swung round I then ploughed it straight into the side of the spray booth knocking it out of my hand. At the same time the airbrush I was holding in my other hand decided to empty it's paint cup all over the workbench and spray booth. Other than turning the air blue the only damage was a chunk of the spray booth shroud imbedding itself into one the the buffer casing during the impact.

Keep going Dave your nearly there. Great workmanship.

All Best

Dave

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Wed May 12, 2021 3:37 pm

Thanks, Dave. at least my incident wasn't messy with wet paint!
Some more progress at each end of the loco.
At the front, the small grab handles above the front steps and the vacuum stanchion and hose have been fitted. I'm not sure where this latter came from but it is absolutely right for a Scot. Pity it's white metal. The brass casting in the kit is quite the wrong shape.
Scot_194.JPG

At the rear, the curved buffing block was formed from 1.6 mm thick brass bar and added to the etched backing plate. The side rubbing plates for the intermediate (tender) buffers were also fitted.
Scot_195.JPG

Just the outside steam pipe covers, cab-side cinder guards, smoke deflectors and draw bar to go. Of, and the pick-ups, although these can't be fitted till the chassis is dismantled.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Sun May 16, 2021 7:57 pm

Inching ever forward, the steam pipe cover castings have been prepared by filing about 0.5 mm off the inside face, as warned in the kit instructions. They are now placed but not yet fixed - no modelling this evening due to significant wine consumption.
Scot_196.JPG

Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Fri May 21, 2021 8:07 pm

How the mighty are fallen!
It didn't take long at all to reduce the almost complete loco previously shown to this collection of assorted bits.
Scot_197.JPG

I've taken it apart in order to correct the ride height and fit the pick-up mounting pads inside the frames. I had found that, although the loco was sitting dead level, it was about 0.3 to 0.4 mm too low. I'm addressing that by fitting 16 BA washers (0.3 mm thick by good luck) to the top of the coil spring locating spigots (already done) and 0.4 mm thick packers under the bogie compensating beam springs.
Copper clad pads had been prepared from thinned down sleeper strip and these have been fixed inside the frames using 5 minute epoxy. A start has been made on the wiring that connects the two sets of pads.
Whilst the frames are bare, I'll fit some material behind the large circular holes in the frames, just in front of the cab. The rear end of the firebox and ash pan block sighting right through but are not provided for in the kit.
Whilst it's all in bits, i can't decide whether to paint the chassis parts or leave it till after I've got it running.
Dave.

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jim s-w
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby jim s-w » Sun May 23, 2021 8:33 am

Dave Holt wrote:Whilst it's all in bits, i can't decide whether to paint the chassis parts or leave it till after I've got it running.
Dave.


As you are well aware I’m a noob in comparison to yourself when it comes to ‘bunging kettles together’ ( :? )but I find I get on better with painting the chassis before getting it running. Once I have got it running I’m reluctant to take it all apart again.

Jim

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Will L
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Will L » Sun May 23, 2021 10:30 am

For me its chassis first. I prove it works (runs smooth, doesn't derail and goes round the desired size corner) all by it self, then its on to the body and prove that the chassis still works when in the basic body and still works and still goes round the desired corners. It gets checked again as the detail gets added. For this reason my chassis are fully dismantle-able and get dis and re assembled fairly often. I have no problem getting them to work on reassembles. I don't take wheels off the axles. I paint last. I take a long time.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Mon May 31, 2021 9:53 pm

On balance, I follow at least some of Will's sequence. I certainly like to get locos running before painting. In this particular case, I've probably gone much further towards completion than normal before trying to get it to run.
There are now signs of life in the beast although it's clear that some adjustments are going to be required; but it's a start.
First, I tried pushing the loco through the station throat cross-over on my embryonic layout to no avail. The front bogie would just not follow the curved route and just derailed straight away. I eventually traced at least part of the problem to the rear bogie wheel rims rubbing on part of the cylinder drain cock arrangements. Fortunately, the offending parts were completely superfluous to the finished assembly and were simply cut out. That's made a huge difference, but there is more to do to get reliable track holding, possibly including getting more weight on to the bogie.
The next issue was short circuits from the brake blocks. These were very close to the wheel treads but had thought they were just clear with the springs slightly compressed. Wrong. Luckily, I managed (almost by accident) to disentangle the brake rigging from the keeper plate.dummy spring and sand pipe assemblies. It's a bit like those interlocked ring puzzles you get in Christmas crackers. The problem is, that since the rear wheel hangers sort of fell free whist I was fiddling the those for the centre axle, I didn't see how it happened and I'm not sure quite what will be involved in reassembling them! Anyway, various areas of the brake blocks were trimmed using a small slitting disc and half round needle files. All is OK now.
Finally, I've set about the pick-ups. They're all made (from 0.31 mm brass wire) and the ones which bear on the centre and rear wheels have been attached.
Scot_198.JPG

They started out being quite symmetrical, as seen in the photo (the white and orange wires, partially obscuring the pick-ups, are the jumper wires from the copper clad pads to the motor), but trial fitting of the motor resulted in the need for quite drastic re-routing of those for the rear wheels. After making the electrical connections, the chassis was tried under power and some movement created. It even went the right way, purely by chance. Running was a bit intermittent - possibly due to dirty track and/or wheels. Front pick-ups to fit next.
Dave.

DougN
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby DougN » Mon May 31, 2021 10:51 pm

Dave thanks for that, I too love building locos but always have problems with the brake blocks.... they always work too well!

It is interesting that so many people have issues with pick ups and where to route them... yes another of my nightmares when building locos.

The more you put up the more I am getting enthused to get back to my V2's having finally got buildings out of my system (I hope, as another house appeared over the weekend... just because I saw a house in the back ground in a youtube video which appealed)
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:02 pm

Doug, I'm very happy to learn that I may have, in some way, inspired you to progress your V2 models. Best wishes for them.
The pick-up saga continues. Yet further tweaks have been required to the rear wheel pick-ups due to interference with the inside of the resin firebox. Some minor shaving from inside the latter was also done as a precaution. The final, rather convoluted shape of these pick-ups is seen below. Also seen are the copper clad connector pads mounted on the gearbox side. The white and orange wires previously mentioned connect the pick-ups to the bottom section of the pads, which are temporarily bridged to the upper section and thence the motor. In due course, the bridging wires will be removed and connections made to and from the DCC decoder.
Scot_199.JPG

The front wheel pick-ups have now also been fitted. The chassis now runs very reliably with the 6 wheel current collection, even without any track or wheel cleaning. However, I think the top inner part of the front pick-ups might be touching the underside of the boiler, so some further adjustment is required.
Scot_200.JPG

Further trials with the coupling rods and then full valve gear are the next steps. Then, the dreaded smoke deflectors.....
Dave.

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Will L
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Will L » Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:32 pm

Dave, after a number of goes at fitting pickups to pads of copper clad matched various places on the frames I decide there had to be a better way.

These days I like having hard brass wire busbars running along the chassis which you can carefully rout round all the possible obstructions and even add lengths wire insulation if contact with anything else is inevitable. The pickups proper are soldered solidly to the busbar. The advantage is that once formed correctly they can be relied to stay away from other things, and they can be terminated at a suitable solid single bit of copper clad somewhere on the frames where its convenient to bolt it on to the chassis, thus making you pickups reliably removable and replaceable and nowhere near the chassis when it comes to painting time.

The idea developed to include the wound sprung type pickups which I think give you with a shorter more controllable length without making them bear too hard on the wheel. I've documented all this before here and you can find other examples on locos large and small in the rest of my ramblings. like these on the Buckjumpers
Image

I wouldn't do it any other way now.

Winander
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Winander » Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:08 pm

Will L wrote:even add lengths wire insulation if contact with anything else is inevitable


Alternatively shrink wrap/tube could be used which may be easier to thread along convoluted stretches.
Richard Hodgson

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:09 am

Thanks for the thoughts. I have no experience with shrink wrap but have occasionally fitted lengths of stripped wire insulation to pick-up wires where things just got too close for comfort.
On some locos i have used a bus bar arrangement but nowhere as neat as yours, Will, and not removable. Generally, I try to have my pick-ups bear on the back of the wheels, hidden behind the brake blocks, to make them as well hidden as possible, but this means mounting them fairly low down.
In this case, there's rather a lot of stuff between the frames - prototypical frame spacers, keeper plate, exhaust injector steam pipe and inside valve gear. On top, there's the valve gear support frame, which has to be removable from above. I really couldn't see a way of threading a pair of bus bars through it all nor how to mount pick-ups in my preferred place. Indeed, till recently, I wasn't sure how to arrange any pick-ups at all - it could have ended up as a purely static exhibit. In the end, it has proved not too difficult to provide the present arrangement and I'm quite satisfied with the outcome.
The front pick-ups have been altered so as to be clear of the underside of the boiler.
Dave.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:49 am

Well Dave your pickups look even more fiendishly complex than the other pipework etc under the frames!

On my Compound I wanted to maximise pickup as it's got only 4 driving wheels so I thought I'd get the bogie and tender involved too. I've got a horror of wiper pickups on trailing wheels so I put shorting strips on 2 wheels of the bogie one side and 2 of the tender the other side, thus made the tender live to one rail and bogie to the other. No pickup complication but quite a lot of care about insulation and head scratching when there's a short! - but worth it for running quality on test, up to the currently paused painting stage.

Winander
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Winander » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:09 pm

Dave Holt wrote: I have no experience with shrink wrap


Sorry, it's proper name is heat shrink. It comes as a plastic like tube and when heated e.g. carefully with a soldering iron, shrinks around the wire. Also good for insulating cable joints. Available from Eileen's although their bore is a little large https://www.eileensemporium.com/materials-for-modellers/category/heat-shring-tubes. Plenty of variants on the internet, I bought a large mixed bag from ebay "328pc Assorted Heat Shrink Cable Wire Tubing Tube Sleeve Kit Car Electrical Wrap" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264851466505. A lot of huge sizes I will probably never use, but some much finer than Eileen's ( it will only shrink so far) for £3.95 post free. TBH I would search out some better sizes.

cheers
Richard Hodgson

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Will L
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Will L » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:17 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:...On my Compound I wanted to maximise pickup as it's got only 4 driving wheels so I thought I'd get the bogie and tender involved too...

I agree with Julian that it is worth having pickups on more than the driving wheels, so if there is a tender I would always put pickups on it. As a result some of my locos have a nasty habit of not stopping just because the driving wheels are off. I have tried the American system in the past and I found I was involved in more bodges and unexplained shorts than when I bit the bullet and fitted well designed pickups. Then what I found was having six sprung wheels picking up on the tender, putting pickups on all the driving wheels definitely becomes optional and, despite the general view that the more pickup wheels there are the better, you can happily leave them off wheels where they prove particularly hard to arrange. Bogies and pony trucks are normally best left to their own devices.

As for pickups on none driven wheels causing them not to revolve, generally tenders are, or can be, heavy enough to ensure the wheels keep on turning, and, in any event you, will be hard put to notice the are not. In the case if 4-4-0 tanks and the like, they do need pickups on the bogie, with a very light touch, and can result in the need for additional basalt on the bogie

P.S. and I usually use heat shrink these.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 pm

Having made final adjustments to the pick-ups, the loco has now made its first self propelled movements with all the rods and valve gear on. Not perfect, but not bad for first running and everything bone dry. Lubrication of joints and gear box and a bit of running in should improve things and quieten it down - the dreaded cement mixer Portescap graunch is very much present.
It had be previously run as a bare chassis with no rods, chassis and body with no rods, and with coupling rods only.
Dave.

davebradwell
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby davebradwell » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:17 am

Perhaps try squeezing up the mesh on the bevel gears to quieten your Portescap, Dave. I was encouraged to do this and achieved some improvement but there's a sweet spot - too tight is obviously worse. Of course vertical alignment is critical with bevels as displacement causes the teeth to meet on a skew so this might be worth fiddling with, too. Was it Tony Reynolds who swore by the correct lubricant?

As you say though, all part of the fettling process and why it's essential the thing can be dismantled even if you don't want to.

DaveB


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