1 mm Square NiSi Bar

[John Bateson]

I have a need for some NiSi 1 mm x 1 mm square bar to represent internal slidebars but am having difficulty locating a source. Has anybody got a good pointer please?

11B Internal Slide Bars.jpg

John

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

I expect you have tried all the usual places without success.


Perhaps 1mm square brass tinned with solder might be the way to go. Apparently "hard" soft solders have higher melting points.

Jol

[Paul Willis]

Is this for working or non-working inside valve gear?

Because my mind says 1mm square brass or Plastruct, with a coat of Humbrol Metalcote polished steel...

Best,
Paul

[Hardwicke]

I can find sterling silver bar
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://ww ... oTZLVPv7iP

[down_under]

Wizard does 0.4mm and 0.7mm sq NiSi Bar - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/tools/ls06_2/

Hobby Holidays will sell you 1mm sq brass - https://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/Cat%2055%20Sq%20Bar.php

[Guy Rixon]

Alibaba have something that's probably nickel silver: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568054 ... 4itemAdapt

The details get a bit lost in the translation, but a copper alloy that appears silvery is presumably NS. Unfortunately it's not straight bar.

[davebradwell]

Beware that a lot of common nickel silver stock is yellow in colour. Was caught out with some rod for signal lever handles - could have saved cash and used brass.

I'm wondering how sharp the corners might be. Will you need 1.5 X 1 filed down?

DaveB

[John Bateson]

Many thanks for the replies. Very helpful.

My target is to make these internal slide bars (two sets of 4 bars) fully operational but the complexity of the 9P motion may mean I have to have a dummy set - but it is worth a try. I honestly think I have bitten off more than I can chew with this one though!
Very aware of the yellow option for NiSi - so I try to get the bars for other components from where I know they will be nice and shiny after the lathe work.
MetalSmith and Hobby Holidays do brass versions - and I do wonder if it is worth silvering these with something like
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D5TCYBG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I note that ETSI and Albion Alloys also do 1 mm x 1 mm brass.

I have some square 1 mm NiSi bar, but it came as a reel and is difficult to get straight - or straight enought to act as a set of slide bars. The last set of straight bar I bought was from Eileens quite a few years ago - "Cross Head Guides Eileen’s NF01005D NiSi 1.0 x 0.5" so the 1 mm x 1 mm option should be available from somewhere.

Still, it keeps me away from other problems!

Happy New Year to all
John

[Paul Willis]

MetalSmith and Hobby Holidays do brass versions - and I do wonder if it is worth silvering these with something like
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D5TCYBG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If it's going to be working motion, is that really going to last much longer than a coat of Humbrol?

By all means give it a try if you wish, but it does strike me that it is a product more for "decorative" items rather than functional, and for you it will be easy on, easy off...

Best
Paul

[Jeremy Good]

Cambrian Model Rail, who took on much of the Eileen’s wire etc appear to be able to supply 0.8mm x 0.8mm square brass. They say they can get larger sizes to order including 1mm x 1mm. Their website also says that they hope to do nickel silver sections soon so it might be worth making contact with them.

www.cambrianmodelrail.co.uk

Jeremy

[Horsetan]

Many thanks for the replies. Very helpful.

My target is to make these internal slide bars (two sets of 4 bars) fully operational but the complexity of the 9P motion may mean I have to have a dummy set - but it is worth a try. ...

Ooh, which 9P/B3 are you doing, John?

I had a copy of a 9P GA and, looking at it more closely, thought that it might be possible to adapt some of the eccentrics by using Martin Finney parts plus bits of the old Rod Neep inside motion kit for the D11 (it used to be sold by Peter K and Exactoscale all those years ago).

[davebradwell]

Re working internal gear: the crosshead has to move the full stroke or it's not worth the bother - it's a crank or nothing. Chris P's original J27 has the full works and the top of the rather prominent crosshead is clearly visible doing its dance but that's a single bar type so top-heavy from the visual point of view.

Can remember watching these engines shunting on slightly elevated track at N end of Low Fell Sidings - probably eye-level and the conn rods and motion were clearly visible below the frames and more so than from normal viewpoint. Of course, the reversing action was obvious too with eccentric rods being raised or lowered - 57 years ago now! There's a need to draw the line somewhere.

Perhaps optimum might be proper crossheads (if visible at all) and reversing, but otherwise static, Stephenson. Suspect your 9P might have valves on top so crossheads lost in the works and valve movement barely visible. Reversing possibly hidden by large splasher.

DaveB

[Horsetan]

Re working internal gear: the crosshead has to move the full stroke or it's not worth the bother - it's a crank or nothing. Chris P's original J27 has the full works and the top of the rather prominent crosshead is clearly visible doing its dance but that's a single bar type so top-heavy from the visual point of view.

Can remember watching these engines shunting on slightly elevated track at N end of Low Fell Sidings - probably eye-level and the conn rods and motion were clearly visible below the frames and more so than from normal viewpoint. Of course, the reversing action was obvious too with eccentric rods being raised or lowered - 57 years ago now! There's a need to draw the line somewhere.

Perhaps optimum might be proper crossheads (if visible at all) and reversing, but otherwise static, Stephenson. Suspect your 9P might have valves on top so crossheads lost in the works and valve movement barely visible. Reversing possibly hidden by large splasher.

It so happens that the inside cranks as supplied in Finney GWR kits are very similar in shape and size to those on the GCR 9P, and doubtless the brass eccentrics could also be used on the GC engine. Similar ideas can also be adapted for the Irish GNR(I) "S"-class 4-4-0. Half the fun for me is trying to work out what bits can be (re-)used in different engines.

Graham Nicholas and Graeme King collaborated to produce a 9P kit a little while ago and, whilst it may not be quite up to John's exacting standards, it does have potential in that it can be messed with to produce something a bit beyond what was originally intended. I understand that a B3/2 Caprotti version is also being slaved over.

The very similar 9Q/B7 (for which I have the GA shown) also gives some idea of what lies between the frames - the setup is much the same as the 9P, albeit the length of the connecting rods is different. The Manchester Museum of Science & industry also has (or had) a GA for the 9P but, when I last enquired about its existence, they told me they couldn't find it.

[John Bateson]

My original plans for the 9P go quite a few years back. I had intended to have a completed model ready for the 1918 Armistice Commemorations but that day came and went due to "circumstances".
Having bought the GAs for the 9P, 9Q, 1 & 1A and realising that there were so many similarities that I lumped them all in one project. For example, the boilers are (almost) identical except for the pitch of the Class 1A. The internal motions of the 9P and 9Q are the same except for the motion angles, which are steeper in the 9Q and in the 9Q the internal and external motion angles are slightly different.
The Class 1 and Class 1A do not have external motion of course but the internal motion is the same as the 9P and 9Q except for the larger cylinders.

For most of their lives these engines had standard GCR tenders. There were only 24 self levelling tenders built in GCR days anyway and they didn't last long with the 9Ps. So that area was covered by an older etch design. Somebody may have better data than I have on these movements and quantities before and after Grouping.

As for progress, this is the sad part. So far, as readers may know, I document all the designs and builds as I progress and so far I am at just over 500 hours with the Class 1 and 1A barely started.
Of note in these locomotives is that the 'bend' in the chassis at 48" fron the front has been abandoned. This bend was intended to allow the bogie to move for curves further than a straight frame would allow. In these later locomotives the frame is straight but is cut away so that the bogies can pass through the frames. This was necessary due to the longer length of these later locomotives.

1169 Lord Faringdon.jpg

I have tried a modular approach to these designs which has made some of the building work a lot more secure but does require accuracy in the design. I I have yet to be happy with the front end and the sliding windows in the cab will probably end up with a 3D printed version. (Noting of course how easy it is to mis-read a GA!).

202401168 Lloyd George.jpg

Part of the current built is therefore Qty 3 9Ps and Qty 3 9Qs. I received the etches from PPD late July 2023 but did not start for three months after a visual inspection revealed several cock-ups on the frames - am I allowed to say that?

GCR B3s.jpg

GCR B7s.jpg

At present I have been thinking about a series of articles for the Snooze, using as titles for each segment those from the Jody Taylor books on "The Chronicles of St. Mary's" - such as "What could possibly go wrong", etc etc etc.

GCR B7s.jpg

And finally, in a purely selfish way, I am avoiding all thought of '00' or EM options. I think these have been catered for in a thread on RMweb and I have refered a number of enquiries to their project.

John

[Terry Bendall]

In spite of the problems John, these are looking very good and perhaps will encourage others to model the Great Central in all its glory.

Terry Bendall

[Geoff]

Have you thought of laminating nickel silver strip? Any visible solder layers would resemble steel, and the layers should stay straight once persuaded into the correct outline.

[Horsetan]

I have a need for some NiSi 1 mm x 1 mm square bar to represent internal slidebars but am having difficulty locating a source. Has anybody got a good pointer please?...

I looked at what the jewellery trade might have, and discovered this page - about part way down the page is the following:

"4 Metres 1mm Square Silver Plated Copper Wire
Ref: SQ-SP1000NT-004M"

It's not quite nickel-silver, admittedly, but you do get 4 metres of it, and the price is stated to be £3.05 incl. VAT

[Hardwicke]

I wonder if the 0.5mm Square Silver Wire is suitable for point rodding.

[Guy Rixon]

I have a need for some NiSi 1 mm x 1 mm square bar to represent internal slidebars but am having difficulty locating a source. Has anybody got a good pointer please?...

I looked at what the jewellery trade might have, and discovered this page - about part way down the page is the following:

"4 Metres 1mm Square Silver Plated Copper Wire
Ref: SQ-SP1000NT-004M"

It's not quite nickel-silver, admittedly, but you do get 4 metres of it, and the price is stated to be £3.05 incl. VAT

My wife has some of this for jewellery work. It's coiled and fairly soft as supplied. It hardens with working, but I think it would lose accuracy of its section in the process. Questionable whether it's suitable for motion work, and I'd expect the silver plating to rub off quite quickly.