Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

kevini

Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby kevini » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:51 pm

Hello,

I have just joined and am new to P4 and loco kitbuilding but I have a lot of experience in soldering/etched brass in car modelling.

As an initial entry into making my own kits I thought I would try making a Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0 (with working inside motion) as it seems fairly straightforward and would be prototypical for the layout I will be starting soon.
Details of kit and instructions are here:
http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_1854_ ... 6-0pts.htm
http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/Downloads ... ctions.pdf

Not having made a P4 kit before I was wondering if someone could suggest the best method for springing, pickups and motor/gearbox and other accessories I may need for this as it is very difficult it seems in this hobby to get a "starting point" or best practice set of parts/methods.

My intended layout will be an end to end layout inspired by Penzance in the 20/30's with harbour and Cornish Riviera running (I live nearby in Falmouth). It would be good to provide a hidden "tight loop" hidden curve to provide for continuous running of some form so not sure yet if that may be a factor for the chassis to cope with and what min radius (hidden track curves though) I could get away with.

It looks like from my current reading that best practice for this kit may be:

1) Compensated and? sprung suspension......I think the kit comes with flexchassis sprung hornblocks
2) Pickups....I am not sure best method/components to order for this?
3) Couplings - I like the look of Great Chelmesford Junction model railway couplings on all my stock. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjBHcP65dLI
4) Motor - Kit is designed for Designed for a Portescap 1219 but an alternative is a Mashima 1220......recommendations?
5) Gearbox - Kit is designed for a High Level Road Runner Plus 54:1 - Seem OK?
5) Wheels recommended for kit are 4'7½" 16-spoke 10" crank throw, pin between spokes - Ultrascale, Alan Gibson, Markits......Which of these manufacturers would you recommend?

I am not sure if the working inside motion may give potential conflicts between some of the above when fitting.

Note I will be using an ESU ECOS DCC decoder with LOKsound

Recommended forum links to setting up the above are also welcome. I have searched through the many thousands of online posts already but now feel I am drowning in articles without the experience to choose between in my particular scenario.

Jeremy Suter
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:56 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Jeremy Suter » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:52 pm

I am sure there are others out there who will tell you how to spring it. But as this is your first attempt I suggest you build exactly as the instructions tell you and the same with the inside motion. It is compensated rather than sprung. This is an excellent kit that goes together well as do all Ex Martin Finney kits.
For building in P4 I would prefer to use Ultrascale wheels but there will be a wait to get them. Gibson wheels will do just as well. I used a Mashima Motor standing vertically in the fire box driving the rear axle. I cannot remember which one or which gear box although it was from High level the only alteration I made was to be able to drop the wheels out if required later by making the pickup plate on the bottom of the chassis detachable.
Tips and tricks in machine tool practice viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Will L » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:07 pm

Jeremy Suter wrote:I am sure there are others out there who will tell you how to spring it.

Jeremy probably meant me, and while I would say that CSB springing is a good thing (you can follow the link under my signature), but for your first chassis build I would tend to agree with Jeremy.

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:53 pm

I would echo the last two posts. As far as wheels go Ultrascale will give you the least difficulty to set up. The 1854 kit is actually quite a complex kit to build. Personally I would do a High Level Pannier chassis first which comes with its own gearbox and can be built compensated, rigid or sprung. Inside motion does work but again I would focus on getting a basic chassis working first and learning from that.

I am currently building a Martin Finney 2251 which follows the same construction principles as the 1854. It has inside motion and I am using CSB sprung compensation because there is very little room for individual springing adjacent to the slide bars. I have built the body first so I can find the centre of mass to be able to calculate the fulcrum positions which is done using a spreadsheet on the CLAG website. Follow Will’s link.

I am using wiper pickups which will have to be mounted on coils attached to busbars running the length of the chassis and running on the outside diameter of the flanges.

I have included some pictures of the 2251 and the pickups on my Brassmasters 72xx EasyChas,

F2C87EF4-442E-4749-BB13-CBED903A6A70.jpeg
22123547-C7A8-48EC-A50A-1694E6D62533.jpeg
062764CF-4CF6-4045-9B72-27EC49909198.jpeg
6F1E0D09-9D66-43DA-AE12-262CED622CEF.jpeg
C7937987-5AB1-41BD-AC27-10494CABF04B.jpeg
77AE5773-3113-41C1-94D0-A343F4E66F83.jpeg


Mark Humphrys
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

davebradwell
Posts: 1174
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:48 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby davebradwell » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:09 pm

I'm with Jeremy here and suggest you just build the thing according to the instructions. You'll then have gathered an informed opinion when tackling the different possible approaches to your next model. Only deviation might be to follow the suggestion to make the wheels drop out as this is a great benefit when getting the chassis to run well but look at it carefully before jumping.

Pick-ups - there's never been agreement on the forum about these but I maintain anything that acts vertically is interfering with the suspension. 0.3 phos bronze wire is pretty standard and it should act on a corner, like the flange, to get max contact pressure.

Choice of couplings is normally dictated by those you mingle with despite your own preferences. Jacksons are down as the standard and I've never seen any reason to change. A great strength of P4 is the ability to take your models to other layouts and it's a bummer if you can't couple up, although there's always the 3 link.

Ring Chris at High Level and he'll sort you out a motor/gearbox. 54:1 fine for goods work. Go for the Ultrascales with their own crankpins.

Wouldn't bother with the inside motion. When it's done properly with a crank axle you can watch the crossheads marching to and fro but usual system uses eccentrics and they only move a few mm - poor show. It's something else to give trouble.

DCC is a wise choice but suggest you test on dc without decoder to track down and eliminate all binds in the chassis.

You might keep an eye on Model Railroader in 'Smiths to gather ideas on operating your railway as we don't get much in our national magazines. I'm meaning traffic and destinations, here.

That's my biased opinion, then.

DaveB

User avatar
Winander
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Winander » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:34 pm

davebradwell wrote:Wouldn't bother with the inside motion. When it's done properly with a crank axle you can watch the crossheads marching to and fro but usual system uses eccentrics and they only move a few mm - poor show. It's something else to give trouble.


Martin Finney inside motion from Brassmasters come with the option of working or not. The working version has cranked axles, the valve rods are driven from eccentrics.

Will Litchfield has a very easily understood blow by blow account of building a chassis with an index here: viewtopic.php?f=96&t=6934#p75311

Fettling hornblocks is here: viewforum.php?f=161 although a little dated, well worth a read.

You'll be lucky to get a Mashima motor as they are no longer manufactured, like hen's teeth and if available expensive. If you go the High Level route, Chris does iron cored and coreless motors. Given his gearboxes, hornblock system and kits are regularly praised, I have been happy to buy his new motors on spec and they are guaranteed to fit his new gearboxes. He has advised that the coreless motors have bearings suitable for use with worm drives - coreless motors without suitable bearings cannot take the thrust exerted by a worm drive.

The forum is an excellent source of advice and encouragement, so don't be afraid to ask.
Richard Hodgson
Organiser Scalefour Virtual Group. Our meeting invitation is here.

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:37 pm

The Martin Finney inside motion has cranks and eccentrics. The picture below is the Crank axle for the 2251. I haven’t ground the axle away yet between the cranks yet because I want to set the quartering first. When the material is ground away this becomes a weak point so the less rough treatment the axle is subjected to after removing the material the better.

10372E6D-F9BD-475B-A2D8-82BD9CD3DB91.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Winander
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Winander » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:43 pm

best33 wrote:The Martin Finney inside motion has cranks and eccentrics.


Looks great, did you silver solder them?
Richard Hodgson
Organiser Scalefour Virtual Group. Our meeting invitation is here.

kevini

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby kevini » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:51 pm

Many thanks for all the good suggestions which have given me the info I needed.
I will order the working inside motion and have a look at it but may be a "step too far" on a first one

petermeyer
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby petermeyer » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:16 am

I built my 1854 chassis compensated as it comes out the box and with a High Level Road Runner+ and drive extender (this is the recommended configuration for a Dean Goods). I swopped the Mashima motor for one of Chris's 1219 Coreless motors and all work fine. This sits horizontally in the boiler space. I also used Ultrascale wheels which I'd had in for years. Mine sits under a Wills saddle tank body.

I built the inside motion non working as I was not brave enough to cut through an Ultrascale axle. Also I'd read of some disasters of early attempts when trying to quarter the cranked axle pushing the wheels on with a GW wheel press (which I use). As mentioned above, this becomes a weak spot and the wheel press can wreck/bend the motion and soldering. I would leave this to a later build. IIRC you can order working or non-working motion from Brassmasters.

The other issue you have, in addition to a wait for Ultrascale wheels, is that High Level gearboxes are currently out of stock.

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:25 am

Winander wrote:
best33 wrote:The Martin Finney inside motion has cranks and eccentrics.


Looks great, did you silver solder them?

Yes they are solver soldered. I got myself a little confused when I did this one. I built a Bulldog 24 years ago with full inside motion and put the silver solder in the kit box so it would be easy to identify it. Anyway when I wanted to use it for this I tried to melt it with a soldering iron to check. Proper silver solder melts at a temperature well above the 400 degrees of the soldering iron so I was surprised when it melted. So I assumed it wasn’t silver solder so I ordered some from a company called cooks on gold along with the correct flux. This stuff wouldn’t melt even with a gas torch. Then I noticed that I had some 215 degree solder which was described as silver solder and that was the same temperature the solder I first tried melted at. Anyway the Bulldog crank axle is still sound after 24 years so I used the same 215 degree solder.

petermeyer
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby petermeyer » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:11 am

Jeremy Suter wrote:the only alteration I made was to be able to drop the wheels out if required later by making the pickup plate on the bottom of the chassis detachable.


Jeremy. Can I ask how does one make such a keeper plate. What material is it made of? Do the axles/bearings rub against this or is that not an issue? Peter

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:37 am

Silver solder melts between 655 deg C and 780 deg C depending on grade.

https://www.cooksongold.com/blog/learn/ ... soldering/

A gas torch is needed to reach those temperatures. Any soft solder as used with a soldering iron probably won't provide enough shear or tensile strength, so is not really suitable for this.

The advice given in this thread, especially Jeremy's and David B's, sums it all up really. All I would add is that I have found PB wire or stip with a small contact pad, bearing on the rear of the tyre, works well. Iain Rice recommended gold for the pad but I have found a thin piece of brass works effectively.

Jol

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:52 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Silver solder melts between 655 deg C and 780 deg C depending on grade.

https://www.cooksongold.com/blog/learn/ ... soldering/

A gas torch is needed to reach those temperatures. Any soft solder as used with a soldering iron probably won't provide enough shear or tensile strength, so is not really suitable for this.

The advice given in this thread, especially Jeremy's and David B's, sums it all up really. All I would add is that I have found PB wire or stip with a small contact pad, bearing on the rear of the tyre, works well. Iain Rice recommended gold for the pad but I have found a thin piece of brass works effectively.

Jol

I agree. I used that website and purchased solder and flux from them but I couldn’t get it to melt let alone flow with a gas torch on trial pieces. As I said the Bulldog is fine after 24 years so I think it is fine. I don’t know why the solders I have with the lower melting temperatures are classified as Silver solder.
4D184DF0-F8AB-4FBD-A3EE-FFA58B06A335.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:18 am

best33 wrote:I agree. I used that website and purchased solder and flux from them but I couldn’t get it to melt let alone flow with a gas torch on trial pieces. As I said the Bulldog is fine after 24 years so I think it is fine. I don’t know why the solders I have with the lower melting temperatures are classified as Silver solder.

This solder contains silver and was as part of the move to stop using lead solders, but is not a silver solder which, as Joel pointed out, melt at much higher temperature. The 221 degree stuff wets well and runs nicely and is very useful when doing small assemblies with multiple joint with ever decreasing temperature solders, but you'll be hard put to do big jobs with it using an ordinary soldering iron.

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby jon price » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:21 am

Although the heading is suspension you list a number of things including coupling.

I see no problem in visiting other layouts (depends where you live whether that is viable of course) without going down the AJ route. Many respected P4 modellers use other systems. If you want to run on an AJ layout but you use different couplings I suggest simply building a shunter's wagon (if shunting) or a horsebox (if running passenger) or any open wagon (if running goods) with your coupling at the loco end, and an AJ at the other. You could even maybe persuade the people whose layout you would be running on to install the AJ

The Great Chelmsford couplings look like an interesting approach to the three link conundruum of making it look more right whilst easily handling the couypling/uncoupling with failing eyesight or difficult access. I would be interested to test this out using scale links (but I'm without workspace for at least a couple of months), and maybe smaller diameter magnets.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

User avatar
Winander
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Winander » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:04 am

best33 wrote:I don’t know why the solders I have with the lower melting temperatures are classified as Silver solder


I think there is some confusion regarding labelling. The label in the picture indicates the solder comprises of tin and silver not that it is 'silver solder'.
Richard Hodgson
Organiser Scalefour Virtual Group. Our meeting invitation is here.

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:46 am

Winander wrote:
best33 wrote:I don’t know why the solders I have with the lower melting temperatures are classified as Silver solder


I think there is some confusion regarding labelling. The label in the picture indicates the solder comprises of tin and silver not that it is 'silver solder'.


The pictures below are the silver solder and flux I tried to use. I cleaned everything with fine Emery paper to get clean metal surfaces. I mixed the flux to form a paste and tried small snips of the solder on a test piece. All I got was flux evaporating, metal glowing red and the solder sat there doing absolutely nothing. I tried several different approaches to filings of solder but it refused to melt. I tried a larger gas torch but the effect was the same.
817F86F2-4568-4EE5-BD87-620D033CFBBD.jpeg
CDBF44AB-C7E0-46CD-8FC8-9D32C6F82CF0.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

davebradwell
Posts: 1174
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:48 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby davebradwell » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:19 pm

The only explanation can be you didn't get it hot enough - everything melts eventually! If you hadn't put enough flux on then the slivers of solder would have melted into tiny balls but not run into the joint. Job needs to be a good red before solder melts, but not orange if it's brass!

DaveB

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:00 pm

davebradwell wrote:The only explanation can be you didn't get it hot enough - everything melts eventually! If you hadn't put enough flux on then the slivers of solder would have melted into tiny balls but not run into the joint. Job needs to be a good red before solder melts, but not orange if it's brass!

DaveB

Thanks Dave. I will give it another go sometime. Maybe I didn’t use enough flux on my trial parts. I had the steel glowing red so I don’t think heat was the issue.

User avatar
Winander
Posts: 847
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby Winander » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:22 pm

I have no experience of this, just from watching videos of someone building a live steam boiler. She pointed out that you have to have a hearth to reflect heat back on the piece and had a 4 inch diameter boiler stood on end closely enclosed by firebricks. The burner she uses looks a bit bigger than normal although it's not that massive. Also note that propane burns hotter than butane; I get a mix of propane/butane that can be used in a normal gas torch such as plumbers use and, anecdotally, it is a fair bit hotter than neat butane.

https://youtu.be/Gg8gQGY8AkQ?t=280
Richard Hodgson
Organiser Scalefour Virtual Group. Our meeting invitation is here.

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby jon price » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:29 am

Interesting though the diuscussion of silver solder is I think this discussion has strayed a long way from kevini's original questions.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:48 pm

jon price wrote:Interesting though the diuscussion of silver solder is I think this discussion has strayed a long way from kevini's original questions.

I think silver soldering is very relevant to the original question given it is required to build the inside motion.

Anyway to move the discussion on the following images show the clearance between the inside cross heads and the High Level CSB Spring carriers. The rear of the axle box will need to be filed flush with the back of the carrier to clear the cross head too although this needs to be done whether you are fitting springs or compensation beams. The images are for the 2251 but the 1854 will be very similar.
FFBAC415-E60F-44E0-B81D-DB5AB6A66205.jpeg
1D1E4A4D-7374-41B9-BD61-9A2AAA38FAF0.jpeg
9D9A5C0F-8ECC-4C7F-9A6F-7325030AE899.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
jon price
Posts: 641
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby jon price » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:08 pm

best33 wrote:
jon price wrote:Interesting though the diuscussion of silver solder is I think this discussion has strayed a long way from kevini's original questions.

I think silver soldering is very relevant to the original question given it is required to build the inside motion.[/quote}

Although, as you say, your Bulldog (which I suppose to be very well built) has succesfully survived for some time with standard solder used for the inside motion. :) I would guess it all depends how much mileage the loco is likely to cover in its lifetime, and maybe what its regular running speed is. Alternatively it may be that a loco running srvices on a layout wih a long run of main line suffers less than a shunting engine, which although having low mileage has many more reversals of direction.

Something that slightly confuses me is if you file back the bearing so it can pass between the inside motion and the frames where does the axle go?
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

best33
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 12:05 pm

Re: Best suspension for Brassmasters GWR 1854 0-6-0

Postby best33 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:18 pm

jon price wrote:
best33 wrote:
jon price wrote:Interesting though the diuscussion of silver solder is I think this discussion has strayed a long way from kevini's original questions.

I think silver soldering is very relevant to the original question given it is required to build the inside motion.[/quote}

Although, as you say, your Bulldog (which I suppose to be very well built) has succesfully survived for some time with standard solder used for the inside motion. :) I would guess it all depends how much mileage the loco is likely to cover in its lifetime, and maybe what its regular running speed is. Alternatively it may be that a loco running srvices on a layout wih a long run of main line suffers less than a shunting engine, which although having low mileage has many more reversals of direction.

Something that slightly confuses me is if you file back the bearing so it can pass between the inside motion and the frames where does the axle go?


Good point about the axle. It sits under the slide bars but removing the boss on the back of the bearing will give a tiny bit more clearance. Looking at the 1854 the connecting rod straddles the crosshead so clearance that is available on the 2251 may not be there on the pannier. I will keep putting up pictures as I am working on this because I was doing it anyway and it helps to illustrate some of the points made earlier with regard to pickups and removable axles.

Mark


Return to “Chassis and Suspensions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests