Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Proton
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Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Proton » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:10 am

My next task in assembling a Penbits Peak diesel kit is to short out some of the wheel treads to their axles. I am sure this has been discussed here - can someone point me to the thread please? The wheels are Ultrascale,

Thanks in advance.

John

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ianpenberth
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby ianpenberth » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:26 am

a search on here for "axle" and "shorting" is a good start....
Ian
PenBits Model Railways - Diesel bogie springing and detailing

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Tim V
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Tim V » Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:26 pm

Have you looked in Stores?

I know the EMGS do some very good shorting strips.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

David Thorpe

Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:57 pm

I hate shorting strips. They're OK if they fit securely onto the axle after they've been pushed onto it, but sometimes the fit, and therefore electrical connection, isn't good. I've tried several and, as Tim says, the EMGS ones have been the best. I haven't tried the Society (Mark Humphrys) ones and they look interesting and rather different from the others on the market.

Next time I need to short out a wheel I'm going to try something that I read about late last year - unfortunately I can't remember where, it could have been on this forum or RMWeb. It does seem both simple and cheap, with two sprung phosphor bronze wires making the contact between tyre and axle. On the basis that a picture speaks 1000 words, here's the picture that came with the article - I'm sorry that I can't acknowledge authorship:

download/file.php?mode=view&id=27532
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Winander
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Winander » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:40 pm

David,

An interesting idea but you will have problems setting the back to back with all that wire and solder in the way. It should, however, be possible to recess the wire in the back of the wheel rim with some careful filing but I feel the wires are still going to make easily setting the back to back a problematic process especially on a small wheel.

A compromise might be fastening the wires to the shorting strip near the centre if you have a concern that the strip isn't making effective contact although I have not seen anyone on here reporting such problems.
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Jeremy Good
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Jeremy Good » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:49 pm

Both of my PenBits Peaks use the Humphries shorting discs on Ultrascale wheels. They are designed so that they are nicely centred on the right sized wheels and seem to do the job well as long as there is a good friction fit between the disc and the axles.

Once fitted be careful to set the back-to-back from the tyres not the disc.

Jeremy

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Andy W
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Andy W » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:53 pm

Make Worcestershire great again.
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stevemcclary
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby stevemcclary » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:41 am

I recently completed a conversion of a Kernow NBL Warship using Ultrascale wheels. The RTR pickip arrangement was based on a conductive wheel and stub axle rotating in a brass bearing.

In the past I have undertaken similar conversions by adding sprung pickups; however, this time I attempted to try and retain the pickup arrangements by using conductive paint.

The stub axles were removed from the original wheels and fixed to the Ultrascale wheels with high-strength retainer. I turned some brass spacers as an inteference fit over the stub axles, these provide a much larger surface area for the application of the conductive paint, and also provide a conductive surface the bearings to come into contact with as the axle rotates.

Initially I tried conductive paint sold for repairing rear window heaters, despite many coats it never achieved sufficient conduction for the motor. I then came across a silver conductive paint from RS Components part No. 101-5621. With a few coats applied on both the outer and inner faces of the weels, a very low resistance was achieved, and the loco has worked faultlessly since. The Silver paint was sealed using a varnish before a more suitable colour was applied for the final finish.

The only real issue is that the paint had to be sent by surface post from Europe during the height of Covid, and took almost six-months to arrive on my shores.

Image
Ultrascale wheels with conductive paint
Stevemcclary, CC BY-SA 4.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0>, via Wikimedia Commons

Hopefully the photo explains it all.
Steve

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Re6/6
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Re6/6 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:02 am

David Thorpe wrote:
Next time I need to short out a wheel I'm going to try something that I read about late last year - unfortunately I can't remember where, it could have been on this forum or RMWeb.


https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... ment-63961
John

David Thorpe

Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:33 am

Re6/6 wrote:https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/9365-converting-a-dapol-class-22-to-p4/&tab=comments#comment-63961


That's not the one I was illustrating - I'm sure it's effective but it seems a lot more complicated!

Winander wrote:An interesting idea but you will have problems setting the back to back with all that wire and solder in the way.


I don't see why it would be any different in that respect from using the usual shorting strips. Incidentally, if you want to see why the EMGS shorting strips are more effective than, say, the Bill Bedford ones, have a look at Tim V's postings in viewtopic.php?t=185

DT

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Noel
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Noel » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:14 pm

David Thorpe wrote:Winander wrote:
An interesting idea but you will have problems setting the back to back with all that wire and solder in the way.

I don't see why it would be any different in that respect from using the usual shorting strips.


I rather wondered whether wheels shorted out that way would go through P4 check rails?
Regards
Noel

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:28 pm

Noel wrote:I rather wondered whether wheels shorted out that way would go through P4 check rails?

Whichever variety of shorting strip you use the flange back needs to be cleaned off to the depth of the flange to avoid any problems with check rails, filing a groove in the flange back to take the strip/wire helps.
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Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Tim V
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Tim V » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:34 pm

Illustrated on my workbench thread!
viewtopic.php?f=105&t=913&start=25
Tim V
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FCA
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby FCA » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:50 pm

The BB shorting strips can be made more effective by nipping the internal diameter with a Stanley (or similar) blade. The resulting nicks in the diameter, two opposing is good, three at 120 deg. is best, have the same effect as the EMGS fingers.

Richard

Proton
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Re: Shorting Out Wheel tread to axle

Postby Proton » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:01 pm

Thanks to everyone who responded to my request for help. I have experimented with the wire on the back of the flange approach, using two wires, and springing them so they grip the axle, per David Thorpe's approach. The Class 45 has American style pickups, so three wheels shorted on each bogie.
However, the space behind the hornblocks is very tight, and I will see what this approach is like operationally. Assembling the wires was very difficult.
I think I will experiment with Andy Walker's idea of using 5 amp fuse wire (or similar). My soldering skills are good enough that I won't need religion or alcohol, and I like the idea that the wire can be soldered to both the axle and wheel, and of course for disc wheels there is no issue with worrying about the spokes.
John


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