GWR inside frame colour

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

GWR inside frame colour

Postby steve howe » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:09 pm

Just finishing a High Level 14xx chassis kit and am wondering if the red that the GWR painted the inside frames and motion was the same as bufferbeam red? which I would interpret as vermillion.

Anyone any thoughts as to whether Railmatch or Precision would be the better bet? I ask because I know from previous jobs that red can be a very transparent colour.

Steve

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:28 pm

I had always understood that the colour was Red Oxide rather than buffer beam red? Could well be wrong though.
Tim Lee

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby BryanJohnson » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:30 pm

I found a link from the GWR Modelling site to a page by Ian Rathbone http://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/gwr-locomotive-liveries-1923-39.php which says Venetian Red, which is the same as Red Oxide.

The GWR Modelling livery section http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries.html has further details with more specific time periods, but I don't know which matches yours. The 1906-1934 section has a preservation period photo of a set of frames taken at Didcot (by Tim Venton).

Bryan

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby steve howe » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:29 pm

That's very useful, thank you, luckily I have some Venetian Red in the paintbox! :thumb

One other query for GW buffs; when did the safety valve cover get painted? my loco is early '30s so relatively new and I thought they were outshopped with painted covers, but all colour pictures (admittedly of other models or preserved examples) show it as brass.

Steve

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby BryanJohnson » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:44 pm

Covered in the text below Tim's photo in http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1906.html

Officially painted after 1922, but plenty of local variation.

Bryan

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1046
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Noel » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:45 pm

BryanJohnson wrote: Venetian Red, which is the same as Red Oxide.


Not according to BS381.

steve howe wrote:One other query for GW buffs; when did the safety valve cover get painted? my loco is early '30s so relatively new and I thought they were outshopped with painted covers, but all colour pictures (admittedly of other models or preserved examples) show it as brass.


The 48XX as built were in plain green, and the safety valve bonnets were painted. Brass is basically a preservation affectation, although may have appeared in earlier days occasionally, but unofficially. They became 14XX in 1946 to allow for oil burning 2-8-0s to be numbered in the 48XX series.
Regards
Noel

Alan Turner
Posts: 535
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:17 pm

Venetian Red is an Iron Oxide pigmented paint. As is Indian Red - called Indian Red as it used a particular Haematite ore imported from India which gave it a purplish hue.

regards

Alan

martin goodall
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby martin goodall » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 pm

The red inside frame colour used on preserved GWR locos (including the preserved Dean Goods at 'Steam' museum in Swindon - which was restored at Swindon Works before going to the museum) is a bright red - certainly not red oxide, indian red or venetian red.

[Incidentally, do you remember when Pendennis Castle went to Australia? Someone misinterpreted the painting guidelines and painted the outsides of the frames red (!!!!) It looked very odd indeed.

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Tim V » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:01 pm

Here is the underside of Caerphilly Castle, pictures taken in 2003. I believe this engine was not painted in preservation, but at Swindon works.
castle3.JPG

castle2.JPG

castle1.JPG
Tim V

User avatar
steve howe
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby steve howe » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:23 pm

Hmmm..

Its all rather subjective isn't it? like so many period paint colours it depended on the eye of the foreman doing the mixing among many other factors. I have Precision Red Oxide and Railmatch SR Venetian Red in my paintbox. On examination the Venetian Red was a sort of muddy pinky brown, heaven knows what the Southern used that for.

I was told the reason why the motion was painted red was in view of so many accidents involving enginemen, fitters, 'jumpers' et al, so as not to show the blood...

This may be just a hoary old tale, and as it was told to me by Chris Challis, himself a hoary old taleteller, we may take it with a pinch of salt.

My frames are now painted Red Oxide and look rather good!


Steve

User avatar
Le Corbusier
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:34 pm

steve howe wrote:I was told the reason why the motion was painted red was in view of so many accidents involving enginemen, fitters, 'jumpers' et al, so as not to show the blood...

This may be just a hoary old tale, and as it was told to me by Chris Challis, himself a hoary old taleteller, we may take it with a pinch of salt.


I understood that it was meant to be easier to see cracks when painted red.
Tim Lee

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1046
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Noel » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:40 pm

steve howe wrote:On examination the Venetian Red was a sort of muddy pinky brown, heaven knows what the Southern used that for.

Headstocks (and sometimes buffer guides), veranda ends and inner body ends of goods brake vans. Whether Railmatch got the shade right I couldn't say.
Regards
Noel

BrockleyAndrew
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby BrockleyAndrew » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 pm

I'm now struggling to remember where, in the last 20 years, I read about hollow bolts filled with red ink that would "bleed" when faulty. Fairly sure it was in aviation.

Andrew

User avatar
Hardwicke
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:25 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Hardwicke » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:08 pm

Not GWR but EE. Early paint technology used red for frames and gears as it showed up cracks. Green was used for boilers as it was heat resistant.
20180825_143950.jpg
Built for an order at English Electric in 1947. Cancelled locomotive order and altered to an MOD generator.


20180825_144001.jpg
EE power unit destined for the recreation of LMS 10000 diesel electic. https://lms10000.co.uk/


20180825_144047.jpg
16SVT Mk 1 (altered)


https://lms10000.co.uk/
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

Phil O
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 5:23 pm

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby Phil O » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:50 pm

When doing dye penetrant crack detection, the initial colour is red liquid which after a pre-determined time is removed and the white is sprayed over the area being tested and you hope not too see any red leaching from cracks.

Phil

37431
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:00 am

Re: GWR inside frame colour

Postby 37431 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:33 pm

I used a red oxide primer for the inside of the frames for my 58xx (an old Perseverence etched body on a High Level chassis). It comes out darker than the Castle and Dean Goods in this thread but a loco in service would have picked up dirt and oil fairly quickly in this area I don't think the examples which were prepared for display in the Science Museum or GWR Museum have the appearance of a working loco, since they have become effectively "stuffed and mounted" (a great shame as I would love to see 2516 in steam again)


Return to “Chassis and Suspensions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests