03 Chassis and Motor of unknown origin

[John Donnelly]

I wonder if one of the more learned members can help a complete chassis/motor novice...

As a diesel modeller I've not, until now had to worry about chassis and motors as everything I've done so far has involved simple wheel swaps. Last year I picked up an 03 with an etched chassis already fitted with a P4 wheel set. It was purchased as a non runner and I figured if I could at least get it running, it would be onwards and upwards from there. At this point I don't really mind how it runs, I'd just like the satisfaction of getting it running.

I've dug it out of it's box and a quick glance shows, even to me, that the problem is that there are no wires to the motor. There appear to be two pickups just to the rear wheels (at least there are spring wires in insulated mountings to the rear wheels which I assume are meant to act as pickups). My biggest problem at the moment is that, rather embarrassingly, I can't even identify where wires should be attached to the motor

The gear box appears to be OK in so far as, if I rotate the motor manually, the wheels do move although there is quite a bit of slack. There are a few photos below and I hope someone may be able to point me in the right direction with the wiring...









Yours confused...

John

[Tim V]

Looks like an Anchoridge D11 or D13, with an Alan Gibson gearbox. One of the brushes is live to the frame. Put a multimeter on it to determine this.

[Philip Hall]

I agree with Tim as to the components, but would also add that if the gearbox is 38:1 ratio, as it probably would be with a Gibson 'box, then once you have the juice connected it may well go like a rocket, as these two open frame motors are very high revving! I would also be very keen to remove the plunger style pickups and substitute with fine wire wipers. Plunger pickups in 4mm scale tend to be akin to putting the brakes on permanently.

Philip




Philip

[John Donnelly]

Thanks for that Tim, you are correct, if i put a wire on the chassis and one on the screw for the brush on the top of the motor, I can now get the motor to move.

Next question is, if I apply power to the wheels instead I get nothing at all and if I have a wire on the chassis and one on the wheels I get nothing there either.

Apologies for the really basic questions...

John

[John Donnelly]

I agree with Tim as to the components, but would also add that if the gearbox is 38:1 ratio, as it probably would be with a Gibson 'box, then once you have the juice connected it may well go like a rocket, as these two open frame motors are very high revving!

Having managed to get power the motor, you are are right, it does seem somewhat high revving. I've also uncovered another problem in that, at any sort of speed the driven wheels appear to have parted company from the axle as it moves independently of the wheels

John

[Tim V]

Probably the friction from the plunger pickups. Looks like a major strip-down.

[steamraiser]

John,
I can only see two plunger pick ups, both on the leading axle.
If the wheels are Gibson (The gear box, plunger pick ups and brake hangars appear to be.) they all have plastic centres so the rims are insulated from the axles.
You will need to fit pick ups on the other two axles as a mimimum.
Personally I would ditch the gearbox and motor in favour of a High Level gearbox and Mashima motor for starters.

The motor should run with two jump wires from the track / controller to the motor brushes.
Don't try this holding the chassis in the air. You could cause some damage to the rods / wheel quartering etc.
It is best to sit the chassis with wheels on the track or a shiny surface like glass.

Gordon A
Bristol

[John Donnelly]

Thanks gents.

I'm in the process of stripping it all down so it looks like I'm going to learn more than I expected...

As it turns out, not only have the driven wheels parted company with the axle, one of the centre wheels is not perpendicular to it's axle.

John

[allanferguson]

John,
I can only see two plunger pick ups, both on the leading axle.
Gordon A
Bristol

And neither plunger pickup has any wire attached to it..... so, no electrical connection to the motor. Is this someone's uncompleted project?

Allan F

[John Donnelly]

Another couple of examples of my current ignorance to follow...

It appears that the gearbox and motor are a single assembly as I can't find a way of separating them?

There are spring hornblocks fitted for all three axles but I cannot find a way of dropping them out so, for the moment, I can find no way of releasing the motor/gearbox...

John

[John Donnelly]

And neither plunger pickup has any wire attached to it..... so, no electrical connection to the motor. Is this someone's uncompleted project?

Allan F

The more I look at it, the more it would appear so. As I said, it was sold as a non runner but, given that it appears to have never run, I'm all the more surprised that the driven wheels have separated so easily from their axle...

John

[grovenor-2685]

For dropping the axles out, on the bottom view there look to be horizontal wires across the bottom of the hornblocks that need removing.
Option 1 is that they are just short wires fitting into holes in the bottom of the hornguide, and may be soldered in place.
Option 2 is that they are U shaped and run up slots on the inside of the hornguides, this type usually come out through holes at the top of the hornguides and need releasing there before they can be pulled out.

The gearbox is probably assembled on the motor shaft, there should be screws holding the box together and when it comes apart just the worm and the inner bearing will be left on the motor shaft.

Regards
Keith

[John Donnelly]

Option 2 is that they are U shaped and run up slots on the inside of the hornguides, this type usually come out through holes at the top of the hornguides and need releasing there before they can be pulled out.

Thanks Keith - they do appear to be U shaped and soldered at the top...

John

[Will L]

The more I look at it, the more it would appear so. As I said, it was sold as a non runner but, given that it appears to have never run, I'm all the more surprised that the driven wheels have separated so easily from their axle...

These wheels soon become loose on the axle if you take them on and off very often. (As an aside, If you don't want to pin them on, I would say once assembled you should never take then off again.) The inexperienced chassis builder often takes the wheels on and off multiple times, particularly when the axle box are trapped in the chassis as in this case. Whoever built this doesn't appear to have had much experience, so it is no surprise the wheels are now loose on their axles.

P.S. the connecting rods will need to be articulated if the hornblocks mean anything.

[John Donnelly]

Thanks Will - the coupling rods are one piece...

John

[Horsetan]

Looks like an Anchoridge D11 or D13, with an Alan Gibson gearbox. One of the brushes is live to the frame. Put a multimeter on it to determine this.

The whole thing is an old Alan Gibson chassis kit. There was also one that he produced for the old Mainline Pannier tank.

[steamraiser]

On the Gibson gearbox IIRC the bearings and worm are slid on the motor shaft then the two halves of the gear box are screwed together.
You may have to unscrew the motor from the chassis to rotate the gearbox so that you can get at the screws.

Are the six main bearings on the axles plastic?

Gordon A

[John Donnelly]

No sign of screws in the gearbox casing, looks like the two halves just snaps together and prising them apart is proving difficult as the frames get in the way...

John

[steamraiser]

Your second picture shows what looks like a screw head in the gear box side.

Gordon A

[John Donnelly]

Don't know how I missed that!!

John

[Will L]

That is a standard Gibson gearbox, which is (should be) screwed together by screws through the side. But you won't be able to split it in place because it slides along the axle and there isn't enough room between the horn blocks while the axle is installed in the loco. And the way those horn blocks are installed, the axle plus gearbox, isn't removable from the chassis.

While we are at it, the reason why it only has pick-ups on one axle is because you couldn't fit the plunger pickups in the other place where there are holes in the chassis for them because they would have fowled the gearbox.

The horn blocks as installed don't look as if the axle bearing block are anything like a close enough fit. Taken together with the solid connecting rods, If it did ever run, it is unlikely that it would ever run well.

When you were sold that chassis as a non runner, they were telling you the truth. Looks like the result of a long unsatisfactory struggle and a great pity as it probably put some poor sole off ever trying again, don't let it do it to you too.

As a mater of interest has anybody got a loco running well on Gibson hornblocks. By running well here I mean a loco capable of a good days smooth running on a active layout, like at an exhibition. Just being able to stager up and down a test track isn't it.

[John Donnelly]

Thanks Will - I'm determined to get it running if I can if only for the experience. I realise that a better solution (and I will go down this route eventually) would be to go for the High Level 03 chassis...

John

[Alan Turner]

Once you take off the rods and get rid of the retaining wires from the horn blocks I think you will find that the axle/gearbox will drop through the chassis with the motor following. Gibson horn blocks whilst not the best can be made to work however the wires should not have been soldered. They should have passed through the top of the hornblock and slightly bent so they could be removed easily.

The chassis looks reasonably well made and should eventually produce a reasonable chassis.

Regards

Alan

[Ian Everett]

As a mater of interest has anybody got a loco running well on Gibson hornblocks.

Yes - my Austin 7 0-8-0, built from a Gibson kit has Gibson hornblocks and I think it runs very well - in fact it's just about the best runner I have. Steve Griffiths and I used to while away long Sundays at exhibitions by playing slow bicycle races on Clecklewyke, seeing who could take the longest time to get the 7F from one fiddle yard to the other. It helps that it uses "American" pick up, so there's no drag from plungers or wires. As I recall (it was a loooong time ago) it was quite easy to set up.

But this is with the all-brass hornblocks. Were you referring to the plastic ones I think he used to make? I believe I have some of these in my spares box but I have never tried them.

[Will L]

..I realise that a better solution (and I will go down this route eventually) would be to go for the High Level 03 chassis...

There is a lot to be said for the Highlevel kits from the point of view of newcomers to chassis building. They do have a lot of detail which can make them seem complex, but they do make up into good chassis as designed, the bits all fit and the instructions are very good and offer a reliable introduction to the process of building a chassis as it should be done.