Sharman Wheels - P4 or EM Profile?

[Brian T]

Hi,

I have some Sharman 22.0mm wheels which I believe to be EM profile but may be P4 profile; when compared to some (new) Alan Gibson 00/EM profile wheels they measure out as follows:

Alan Gibson: 2.31mm thick, with a flange thickness of 0.52mm

Sharman: 2.15mm thick, with a flange thickness of 0.38mm

A bit of digging on't internet suggests that Mike Sharman may have used the same blanks for both EM and P4 wheels. Can anyone help in establishing what profile these wheels are please?

Many thanks,

Brian

[Philip Hall]

Mike Sharman did indeed use the same tyre thickness for both P4 and EM. Flange thickness is difficult to measure, depends on where you put the vernier, and also Mike's EM wheels were a bit thinner in the flange than others. So for me the clue would be in the flange depth. If it looks like a Gibson or Ultrascale P4 wheel (apart from the extra width) then it's P4, otherwise EM. If you could post a photograph looking across the tyre showing the flange, then it would be easier to identify.

At the risk of incurring wrath on here, (and I absolutely don't want to start all that EM/P4 profile stuff again!) as the EM flange is a bit thinner than the norm, it would be possible to use them on P4, even more so if you rubbed down the back a bit to give a P4 thickness flange. I have a dim memory that Mike said that interchange was possible...

Philip

[Brian T]

Hi Philip,

Many thanks; hopefully I've posted some images below - the Sharman wheel is on the right of each image.
The AG wheel is 23.2mm max. diameter, with the Sharman being 23.07mm max. diameter.

IMG_8228.jpg

IMG_8229.jpg

IMG_8230.jpg

IMG_8231.jpg

HTH
Brian

[Philip Hall]

Brian,

If the AG wheel in the picture is EM, then so is the Sharman, as the flange looks a bit thinner. I would compare it with a P4 tyre as it will be obvious then. If you're still in doubt, you're welcome to send one to me and I'll compare it to what I have here. PM me if you wish.

The other thing is that I mentioned they might be usable even if they are EM. I recently commissioned some special P4 wheels for a particular vehicle, to save me the bother of suspension, and these have a profile identical to P4 but with a slightly deeper flange; very similar to the Sharman EM wheel in fact but with a thinner flange so it will go through flangeways properly. So far in tests these have proved very good, so if yours are EM thinning them down from the back will almost certainly work. I must emphasise that my commissioned ones are definitely NOT just EM Fine wheels as some others have used, and they are only for a particular application, where I felt that a slightly deeper flange would be useful. I prefer to use the standard P4 profile in almost all cases.

Best wishes,

Philip

[martin goodall]

So far as I can recall (and perhaps he could be asked to confirm or clarify this), Mike Sharman produced his loco driving wheels to two tyre profiles 'Type A' and 'Type B'. One was intended for P4 and the other for EM.

What I do distinctly recall is that Mike told me that both types would actually run on P4 track. Unfortunately, this was long before it occurred to me to try EM profile wheels on P4 track. I should have taken the hint at the time (now over 30 years ago).

[Philip Hall]

Martin's recollection confirms my own feeling. Sharman wheels used one tyre width, 85 thou (2.16 mm) which was a bit too wide for P4, a bit too narrow (in theory) for 00 and EM. In practice they worked just fine, except perhaps in outside cylindered engines in P4 where things were tight betwixt cross heads and coupling rods.

Brian's pictures show clearly that the Sharman EM flange was indeed thinner than the 'standard' EM one, probably why Mike reckoned the EM wheel would probably work in P4 if you had a mind to use it. I have a few sets of Sharman 00/EM wheels, too good to waste, which I intend to thin down from the back and reduce the flange depth a little to bring them close to P4. Fortunately their robust construction, with tyres locked on both around the circumference and front to back, means that they can be mounted in a lathe and subjected to this abuse!

Philip

[Brian T]

Many thanks Philip & Martin for your most helpful replies (and apologies for the delay in replying - Xmas chaos....).
I've yet to compare the Sharman wheels to P4 wheels - but will do so as suggested. However, from your experiences it does look pretty certain that they are of EM profile (or at least Mike Sharman's version of).

Many thanks.
Kind Regards,
Brian

[Enigma]

Coming to this topic a little late I suppose but, for the record, many moons ago when Mike was still operating the Hot Dog Stand, I needed some wheels for converting an Airfix 14XX tank. At the time Mike was out of stock of the correct P4 profile wheels but he told me that the EM ones would work. Well, they did but - they were VERY critical of check rail and wing rail gaps and they had to be non-wobbly. It was never the best of runners for mainly this reason (but I also think the original Airfix motor and chassis didn't help!) so it was disposed of some time ago.

I wish I still had it now for the body alone - and the detail kit I applied to it.