Exactoscale carriage bogie frets

[DayReturn]

Not long ago I bought on eBay a collection of etched frets of carriage bogies, comprising of several LNWR 8ft bogies, reference ED072, presumed to be Exactoscale, and several Exactoscale Conversion Bogies, reference CB004. Apart from one apparently complete kit, with sundry turnings, spring wire etc, all I have is the frets, with no instructions or other bits. My plan was, given the very reasonable price, that they would at least give me a ready cut framework for a home-made suspension arrangement, with whatever bearings and wheel sets I might apply. If all else fails, that plan will be acted on. However it would be much nicer to put them together as they were intended to be used.

The provenance of the ED072 kits is unknown, the etches aren't marked with a supplier name, but the seller had labelled it as Exactoscale, so I assume it is they.

I contacted C&L to ask if they had any instructions still available, but not only are the kits no longer supplied, they also had no additional advice.

After assembling the frames of one of the ED072 kits (and getting every one of the 16 parts of that upside down, inside out or back to front until I got it right - after which it was blitheringly obvious which way it should have gone!), I still haven't fathomed the bolster arrangement, or, to my satisfaction, the brake rodding arrangement, though the latter I can probably conjure up with the help of a few photos and GA diagrams of other bogies from standard works courtesy of Jenkinson, Essery, Millard, Tattersall and Williams, S. Directions to a readily available source of a diagram or decent photo of a dismounted LNWR 8ft bogie would be most welcome all the same.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any instruction sheets for either of these kits? The fret contains about 967 separate pieces, so it is easy to understand why it is no longer in production! I found a brief review of the CB00n kits by the esteemed Don Rowland in a S4 bulletin, but more substance would be better. But the LNWR bogie especially remains an intriguing puzzle. I have attached a scan of the frets, to share my puzzlement with you.

[John Fitton]

Not quite ready to run is it!

John F.

[grovenor-2685]

This got me into my fret box, I have an Exactoscale CB003, which is like your CB005 except it is 8'6" wheelbase, mine still has all the fittings, bearings etc and instructions. I bought it to try a long time ago, but after trying the wagon axleguards with the same springing I decided to put it at the bottom of the box.

I don't remember your other fret at all, I would be rather surprised if Bernard would leave off his copyright notice, and it doesn't show up in any of the price lists I have. I suspect it might be someone elses magnum opus.
Anyway the instructions for the CBxxx are attached.
Keith

exactoscale bogie-dwg.jpg

exactoscale bogie-1.jpg

exactoscale bogie-2.jpg

[DayReturn]

Thanks very much for the instructions, that is just what I wanted!

As for the other kit, I guess you are probably right about it not being Exactoscale. The mystery continues.

[Paul Willis]

Thanks very much for the instructions, that is just what I wanted!

As for the other kit, I guess you are probably right about it not being Exactoscale. The mystery continues.

I've just checked my stash, and I'm afraid that the other bogie is NOT the PC Models LNWR 8ft one. The etches look similar, but they are not the same by any means.

Sorry that I can't help more but it does rule out one option. Just a thought - does anyone recognise the font used on the etch? People designing artwork usually have a house style.

HTH
Flymo

[Jol Wilkinson]

Very interesting and very puzzling.

I've asked John Redrup if he has any idea but in the meanwhile:

As Paul says the ED072 etch is not PC, they were a rigid (but rather flexible) design. Looking at current LNWR carriage 4mm kit suppliers it isn't LRM, Ratio, Stephenson Carriages or Wizard/51L (formerly Chowbent).

The etch looks as though designed on a computer, which together with springing, makes it look relatively recent. It also has the look of something designed to be an accurate model of the real thing, rather than a more pragmatic approach to a commercial kit. So could it have been a trial design which didn't get into production as too difficult to assemble or perhaps a commission for a limited run of custom built highly detailed models by one of the specialist makers (e.g. Rocar)? There are some suitable prototype drawings in Jenkinson and the WCJS book, (from memory, I do not have them nearby).

Most manufacturers usually include a "brand mark" and a "Part Number" for copyright and identification purposes, both for the producer and the customer/builder. The ED072 reference might be for Etched Design number 72, only of interest to the designer. So that would seem also to rule out Bill Bedford, Masokits and Exactoscale. Ambis don't list it either, but do strangely include some LNWR carriage axleboxes which would possibly suit the etches. A tenuous link, but all I can come up with.

I shall await someone finding a more obvious and straightforward answer.

Jol

[Jol Wilkinson]

Bl**dy typical. No sooner had I posted my reply than I get the following from John Redrup.

"I have heard of it, Bernard had it on display on his stand for a while, when we were first exhibiting London Road, he also had separate cast brass axlebox and springs for it as well.

I wrote it off as completely over the top.

John."

That put's it back into the late 1980's. So it looks like an Exactoscale "trial", which I think that also means there would be no instructions for it. But what do I know?

Jol

[DayReturn]

Thank you very much Jol, much appreciated. Encouraging and possibly discouraging! I will persevere further, though I expect John Redrup's verdict will prevail.

Regarding the drawings for the 8ft bogie, I went back to David Jenkinson's "LNWR Carriages" to make sure I hadn't missed anything. Figure 1 on page 25 shows a 42' chassis and the external side elevation of a bogie, from which I can see the swing links and coil springs, but not much else. The other drawings he has reproduced are of 6 wheel bogies though, and none of the photographs is of sufficient resolution, in the nether regions, to be of much help to me. By "the WCJS book" do you mean a different book to that one? Unless someone can point me to a specific drawing of a LNWR 8ft bogie, I will make do by interpreting the material in Stephen Williams' "The 4mm Coach Part 1" which reproduces the GA drawing of a MR Clayton bogie and a good picture of a steel GWR bogie.

Thanks for looking also, Flymo.

[billbedford]

There are side elevations of the LNWR 8' bogie in LNWR Non-Corridor Carriages by Millard and Tattersall. There's also a GA at the NRM if you want to go into that amount of detail.

[dal-t]

I was about to post yesterday when Jol superceded half of what I intended to say and I ditched my draft. The other half said (a) I assumed you'd seen the drawings in Millard & Tattershall under the section on Cove Roof Suburban carriages, which give basic details of the bogie, and (b) I'm sure I've seen a decent photograph of a dismounted 8' bogie recently, but a search of the 'usual suspects' hasn't thrown it up. It doesn't seem to be in any of Bill West's books on Wolverton, or any of the general LNWR histories that have been out of my bookcase in recent weeks. That leads me to believe it was most likely in a copy of the LNWR Society's Journal, but since my stock is in the process of being reorganised, it could just as well have been from a relatively ancient one as from any of the current volume's (somewhat disrupted) issues. If I'm right someone else (Jol again?) might be better placed than me to track it down, as my boxfiles are now 'out of bounds' in the modelling room, while our guest quarters are prepared for Christmas. If nothing has turned up in the meantime, I'd be happy to return to the hunt in the New Year ...

[Jol Wilkinson]

During my a.m. visit to my workshop at the end of the garden I had a quick trawl through my recent LNWR Society Journals but didn't find anything, but as David thinks there was something I'll take a longer, lingering, look over the weekend.

West Coast Joint Stock (HMRS) book has some underframe details drawings but nothing for the 4 wheel bogie. I had a look at a couple of other books, including one with some good photos of the inside of Wolverton Works. One shows an underframe being being lowered onto a bogie, but the angle is such that the centre of the bogie and the bolster are not visible.

I also spoke to John Redrup yesterday who recalls that the original etches that Bernard Weller showed him included various options for different footboards, etc. so some of the bits on the fret are probably "duplicates".

Jol

[DayReturn]

Many thanks again to all of you. Millard and Tattersall "LNWR Non-Corridor Carriages" was my first port of call, Bill, but the drawing doesn't show any of the arrangement of the bolster or brake rigging, from which I would hope to get a view on what to do with the five bits that I think make up the bolster, and the seventeenth piece of the bogie frame that is obviously a short cross-member and has a bracket for the rigging (there are four of them in the top left of my scan of the etch) (and that's 17 pieces per one bogie's frame!), or the circa 24 pieces per bogie that make up the brake rigging itself! The brake blocks are the easy bit, in spite of numbering 48 separate pieces. There are 8 candidates for tie-bars, but the shorter ones may go cross-ways. I can't see anything that looks specially for step boards - there are some half etches on the reverse of the fret of course, but only a few and they don't add much to interpretation.

It isn't that I want to go to that amount of detail, it's more the fact that the bolster is crucial and still has me stumped. Other than that, it's the Everest syndrome - because it is there. I have three carriages' worth of these LNWR bogie etches and twelve of the conversion bogie frets, for three different wheelbases, but the latter are now solved, thanks to Keith above.

Regarding the bolster, the two pairs of pieces with big holes in do go together to make a nice box to represent the bolster bar, with a big double-thickness tab at either end. I don't know if these tabs should face up or down. There are 2 pairs of vaguely cuboid brackets nearby on the fret, that fit precisely between the inner cross-members. I cannot work out which way these go and whether they support the bolster bar or not. One way round and they might be taken to represent the swing links, but then the bolster bar is either hidden behind the main frame/bogie solebar, or seems far too low if I turn it over. Putting them in another way around and they make do as rain-guards for the middle section, but the conspicuous rain guards that feature at the outer end of the bogie in photographs, is not represented in the etch at all.

There are two pairs of rectangular pieces that don't really fit anywhere specific, but which might have been intended to allow the whole bogie to pitch, i.e. pivot in the direction of travel. The one pair of longer pieces that have a small hole at each end and lengthwise etches to fold into a flat U shape, has me stumped completely. I thought it might be a cosmetic overlay for the end, but is too short. It must hang around the bolster somewhere I think.

I am going to try assembling the brake rigging next, to see if doing so makes any of the rest clearer by narrowing down possible places to fit them.

Thanks again!

[DayReturn]

Actually 'rain guards' sounds a bit naive. I should have said water-trough splash guards, and I guess these only feature on the outward facing ends of each bogie.

[Jol Wilkinson]

One difficulty I have is seeing the etch from one side only, as it doesn't show where other fold lines may be to create U sections, etc.

I think you also need to take as many clues as possible from the instructions Keith provided, as they are both (presumably) by the same designer around the same time.

Reflecting on the use of U and L sections in the LNWR carriage underframes, it is likely they did the same for the bogies. So, Looking at the number of pieces with fold lines on the fret, how about stretchers (crossbeams) at each end and in the middle, either side of the bolster. Then two beams running from the end to middle stretchers, either side of the centre line.

The bolster is a bit more difficult. Is it meant to couple to the bogie by wire springs - there are five (four plus a spare)) pieces with folding(?) ears with holes (top and centre left). The four U section pieces look to have holes in them, could they be to take wire spring ends?

Must stop now, my brain hurts.

Jol

[grovenor-2685]

I think you also need to take as many clues as possible from the instructions Keith provided, as they are both (presumably) by the same designer around the same time.

If John was right with late '80s then there is over 10 years between them, the date on the CBxxx frets is 2000 and the springing on those is the second generation Bernard version. The bearing carriers on the ED072 fret look like something in between the Bernard Mk 1 and the Bernard Mk 2. I had a scan through 'Prototype' and failed to find any mention.
Keith

[grovenor-2685]

For completeness, a photo showing the various bits in the packet with the bogie etch. The bearings are the Exactoscale 1 mm id ones for the parallel axles which I think are still available. It looks as though I have only 3 of the 4 pins for the bogie pitch bearings and I don't think it went missing tipping out the packet, anyway easy to cut another from one of the Exactoscale axles should I ever get round to building it.

CB003-bits.jpg

Its a high res pic so will blow up if downloaded.
Regards
Keith

[DayReturn]

Exactoscale ED072 LNWR 10ft bogie annotated.jpg

Thanks very much for all your trouble, sorry about your head, Jol.

I've annotated the scan to show where I am at. There are very few half-etches on the reverse side - I have added these in red. I have lettered all the cross-members/stretchers, including "F?" for a pair with brake rigging brackets that don't have a home in the etched slots. I have put orange circles around one each of the three mystery component shapes, and added a rough plan view of the frames. I have also shown how the bolster box goes together.

Just to prove this is not a vain exercise, I've added a couple of pictures chez moi. I hesitated because the work is a bit sloppy what with all the unpicking and re-picking, but once sorted, I'll fix up a squared up jig for the rest. Anyhow, also in shot are a Ratio bogie, a 247 bogie and a PC Brake 3rd (with MJT bogies, just to show I haven't totally lost my marbles). There are also scraps of a double-sized card and paper mockup I cut out from the scan originally.

[billbedford]

There is an over head shot of some LNWR bogies in Jenkinson's British Railway carriages if the 20th Century Vol 1.

[billbedford]

Exactoscale ED072 LNWR 10ft bogie annotated.jpg

Thanks very much for all your trouble, sorry about your head, Jol.

I've annotated the scan to show where I am at. There are very few half-etches on the reverse side - I have added these in red. I have lettered all the cross-members/stretchers, including "F?" for a pair with brake rigging brackets that don't have a home in the etched slots. I have put orange circles around one each of the three mystery component shapes, and added a rough plan view of the frames. I have also shown how the bolster box goes together.

I think you have parts F and E reversed. F seems to me to be the supports for the brake shoe hangers. Only there should be eight of these, but I can only see six.

[DayReturn]

Thank you very much Bill, yes I found the picture and it does help a lot. Not only that, but David Jenkinson also included cross section and plan drawings of a Midland Bain design bogie on the opposite page, which has a very similar layout to the LNWR bogie (unlike the Clayton bogie drawing reproduced in Stephen Williams' book). The mystery bits aren't resolved yet though, but I will try and unpick them from this material.

I understand what you are suggesting regarding the brake hangers and part F. However parts E are longer than parts F, and the middle longitudinals fit in notches in the stretchers that match lengths of E and F as I have drawn them. So two of F on each bogie are pivots for the central brake push-rod bar that pushes one rod one way and the other, the other way - I dare say there's a proper name for that! The third F doesn't seem to have a home at the moment - it certainly doesn't have any etched notch to fit in. As for the actual brake hangers, the blocks must have to be suspended from the sliding axle-gaurd piece so as to make sure they don't rub when the wheel moves up or down, i.e. to make sure they stay in alignment with the wheel rim. I haven't yet made one up, but it appears to be a butt joint onto the fold-up bit of the sliding axle-guard piece. That then leads me to wonder, because the pull-rods etc. will in effect be additional springs or constraints on the suspension's movement, whether sprung or compensated. We shall see!

Again, profuse thanks for all your assistance, gentlemen.

[grovenor-2685]

As for the actual brake hangers, the blocks must have to be suspended from the sliding axle-gaurd piece so as to make sure they don't rub when the wheel moves up or down,

That was a technique Bernard went in for. There was even a jig for fixing them together, mentioned in those instructions I posted.
Keith

[Horsetan]

.....The provenance of the ED072 kits is unknown, the etches aren't marked with a supplier name, but the seller had labelled it as Exactoscale, so I assume it is they.

I contacted C&L to ask if they had any instructions still available, but not only are the kits no longer supplied, they also had no additional advice......

OT, but other bits supplied by Exactoscale also didn't make it into the handover to C&L, including the inside motion components.