Gibson LMS Compound

John Palmer
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby John Palmer » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:24 am

That ejector looks to have turned out well, Julian, and I see you've managed to incorporate what I take to be an oil pot at the front of the steam admission valve. That's something I've never yet managed to accomplish; looks like a challenge I must face on my next effort on one of these. For the control arm on the steam valve I have been preparing some artwork with a view to having some of these etched; not sure whether the design will work, but since it's part of a much larger bit of artwork for the upperworks of a 2228 Class I can afford the risk of failure - picture should speak for itself:
Ejector steam control arm artwork.jpg
Ejector steam control arm artwork.jpg (67.46 KiB) Viewed 2325 times

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:46 am

Inspirational stuff Julian ... great to see the scratch built elements coming together :thumb

Where did you get your drills from?
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound - Wakefield lubricator detailing

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:05 am

Thanks John (apologies for calling you Jeremy before this edit!) - great that you're making an etch. Below I'll put all the remaining photos of that part that I took in case it's useful. I've been thinking all the way along, surely it must be possible to get castings or etchings made for this assembly, as there seem to be lots of LMS (and GWR?) engines with some variation of these arrangements. But all that comes up on the Wizard and Brassmasters sites doesn't take one very far, and I still fail to see how the Gibson casting relates to any of the components. The oil pot (?) is just a truncated bit of broken boiler knob! The control lever going down to the main ejector casting actually finishes up in a hole I'd made in the boiler for a boiler knob and I see now the cheat isn't quite good enough, as it ends too far back relative to the main ejector casting. That might be alterable without too much anguish. The pipe coming down from the admission valve ends too far back too, but correcting that might unsolder too many things to be worth it.

Next issue, the Wakefield lubricators. How far does one go for realism? The smaller something is the more time it takes and the less difference it makes! The lubricator has 6 pipes coming out of it each side. That might be feasible. On the preserved Compound the pipes conveniently disappear over the edge of the footplate
Midland Compound 003.jpg

but in photos of the locos in BR times, where such detail can be seen at all, something more like this seems to be the case.
20150620_150748.jpg

But there isn't anywhere near enough clarity to see how to start to model this. I wonder if anyone has any ideas/photos?

But then again, life is short...will it be worth it :( !

For what it's worth, here is a photo of what's inside underneath the lubricator on the preserved loco. Could some of all this have been put outside to ease maintenance in more cash strapped BR times?
Midland Compound 014a.jpg


(ON the RHS of 40938 the photo I posted earlier seems to show the simple disappearing pipes, but the LHS seems to suggest something more complicated as above.)

Here are further pix of the admission valve
Attachments
Midland Compound 113.jpg
That little chain might be problematic!
Midland Compound 112.jpg
Midland Compound 111.jpg
Midland Compound 110.jpg
Midland Compound 109.jpg
Midland Compound 109.jpg
Midland Compound 108.jpg
Last edited by Julian Roberts on Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:31 am

Thanks Tim! - RS Components

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:04 pm

Parking the lubricator question for the time being (the pipework on the left of it is apparently the atomiser) I got on with the front steps. When I acquired the semi-built kit these were already attached but vulnerable and I removed them. The two holes for the footstep handrail were drilled each side - though whether they were pre-located in the kit design I don't know. Whatever, on reattaching the steps using the holes as a guide it was apparent they fouled the crosshead.

My first thought was annoyance that I'd forgotten the issue when I replaced the wheels with ones that had the correct throw. Had I got wrong information?

It was also now evident why the nut on the crosshead had been filed down. I had not been happy with this very overscale nut (visible in previous posts). Some weeks ago I had filed it down as far as possible and glued on a finicky representation of what is really there made from a piece of 5 thou phosphor bronze folded over at each end to represent what I assume are oil boxes, with a 16BA nut soldered in the middle. Once the 24hr Araldite had cured thoroughly (48 hrs) I filed them down to something nearer scale thickness in depth. Photo shows it before filing down.
20200104_161556.jpg

Now it looked as though these were going to have to come off but fortunately I found photographic proof that on the prototype the steps were behind the crosshead at its rearmost position.
20200131_095156.jpg

The steps located as per the kit looked wrong in relation to the front driving wheel too - slightly too much space between.
20200131_095421-1.jpg

20200125_211000-1.jpg
Steps located as per kit design

The steps needed to move only 1mm or so backwards to clear the crosshead even with the increased throw. New holes were drilled for the handrails.

I can't stand bendy footsteps and always solder a strengthening layer behind them. They should be located inwards from the footplate (or 'platform') edge so that the steps themselves are within the overall width profile of the locomotive. Fortunately it wasn't necessary to compromise either of these considerations. All I had to alter was the front fixing of the chassis which locates under a tab, which I shortened. To remove the chassis there is a screw at the back to remove, then lift and slide the chassis back then lift out. Murphy's Law dictates that, with the wheels fixed to the gear and no way of turning the motor by hand, someday the chassis will have to be removed when one crosshead is at the rear position. So the backwards sliding movement needed was minimised as far as possible. With the cosmetic oil boxes filed down it is possible to remove the chassis, with care, even if the crosshead is at the rear position.

Below proof it works, so far at least. Tender steps need to be straightened


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Will L
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Will L » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:44 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:...

Its certainly coming along nicely Julian, but if you want a reason why I prefer springing to compensation see the body lurches at seconds 12, 18, 21 and 25.

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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:24 pm

Yes Will (thank you! - my progress may bring shudders to those of equine saddlery sensibilities but I do this to encourage others of my unashamedly amateur standard to similarly have a go) and for the reason you pointed to I won't build anything more with a fixed axle. (Both loco and tender of the Compound have a fixed rear axle.) While this dip is a gross exaggeration, with a fixed axle any track blip, even a crossing V, shows up as an unprototypical lurch. This loco was started six or seven years ago and was second hand. With the recent re-wheeling I could have taken the frame apart even further, and I could have made a new tender frame, but the loco has inherent problems everywhere and did already basically actually work, so I think my time is better spent finishing this off making the best I can of it and getting on with whatever comes next. That will probably be the CSB-only J50 from High Level if it's out as promised soon. And I have a Dave Bradwell loco to make so in due time I will show how a sprung chassis copes with this dip.

An equally strong reason I'll never have fixed bearings again is that assembling a pair of wheels with its hornblock bearings (and gearbox as appropriate) is so much easier as a separate activity. The front pair of new wheels for the Compound went together perfectly in the GW press, but I had a nightmare with the rear pair, as I always have had trying to do this process with the frame attached and getting in the way.

But just for the record, as some people don't seem to understand this, with compensation no axle needs to be fixed (except one on a 4 wheel vehicle). The last two locos I have made both have the front axle rocking on a central beam, and a longitudinal beam on each side linking the rear two wheels. The pivot of the two longitudinal beams is asymmetrically placed approx one third of the distance from the outer wheels to improve roadholding as I wrote in Snooze 199.

Here is the Barclay Tank on the same piece of track, and the Crab, where the front pony wheel has a central roller supporting much of the loco weight, the front driving wheels are simply sprung. The tender is a separate vehicle unlike with the Compound and has a fixed axle at the rear


Any tender I make from now will have a twin beam arrangement.

Below a couple of pictures of the real crosshead.
Attachments
Midland Compound 012.jpg
Midland Compound 118.jpg

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Horsetan
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Horsetan » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:44 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:.... my progress may bring shudders to those of equine saddlery sensibilities.....


Not as much shuddering compared to today's bill for updated safety kit.
Attachments
IMG-20200201-WA0003.jpeg
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:46 am

Just as I thought I was nearly through with only a few small details left to fix on I realised the reverser isn't on yet. And that took me to a load of photos I took - many more than these. Some of this must be represented. Lots of scratchbuilding?...at least I've got plenty of information, but I wonder how much of this detail is available to buy if I knew where to look. Of course I'm going to have to guess what else goes the other way round with the reverser being on the left hand side in BR times, if it's worth getting that bothered about detail - doubtful.
Midland Compound 093.jpg

Midland Compound 096.jpg

Midland Compound 002.jpg


The next picture shows the link between the reverser and the lubricator from the other side. Does this mean the amount of oil supplied varies with the amount of cut off I wonder...not that it matters on the model. The picture also shows the pipes coming from the lubricator that I surmise go to the atomiser which in later times (again surmise) went up on the platform next to the lubricator.
Midland Compound 014.jpg

I've found a photo that shows a possibly easier atomiser to represent albeit from loco 41071
20200202_104849.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:02 am

Basic effort confected from some spare valve gear etch. When it's painted a darkish colour it'll look better...
20200206_215420.jpg

20200207_110117.jpg

20200207_110420.jpg

The connection to the lubricator presently fixed to the pipe will look OK when the lubricator is there. The other connecting lever in the prototype pictures goes to the assisting steam reverser but I'm not bothering with it as it's hardly visible and according to the book was removed. Though I'm not sure if I have understood that correctly as it is visibly still there on the picture of 41071 in the previous post.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:40 am

Progress now at this stage. I'll finish writing a description sometime soon.
Attachments
20200324_153029.jpg
20200324_152539.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:23 pm

I'll catch with what I've already written as a draft for this thread in thee parts - drain cocks, brakes, sanding gear.

I've started the chassis detailing, though ideally I'd have tested the loco on "Calderside" more thoroughly before this stage. It's all delicate and vulnerable to damage, but I started on what I think is least so, the drain cocks, using short handrail knobs to represent the valves. The kit's left over boiler band material looked about right to represent what I assume are control levers. BR days had the drain cocks shortened so that's one thing made easier. Here are the prototype photos I took. I'll post the photos of the process later.
Attachments
Midland Compound 058.jpg
Midland Compound 055.jpg
Midland Compound 056.jpg
Midland Compound 035.jpg
Midland Compound 034.jpg
Midland Compound 013.jpg
Midland Compound 012.jpg
Midland Compound 011.jpg
Midland Compound 010.jpg
Midland Compound 009.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:25 pm

The photos of construction I took are not very good, all fairly obvious anyway
20200306_211854.jpg

20200306_213210.jpg

20200307_161429.jpg

20200307_164232.jpg

20200307_164406.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 pm

The brakes were a bit of a headscratcher as the kit's first owner had made a start and I couldn't relate anything to numbered parts in the instructions. These refer to two different lengths of brakes according to whether one is making an original 7 foot wheel loco or later 6' 9". More to the point, in any case there are two different lengths needed on any one loco and I had a hard time matching up what there was in the kit to what was actually needed. I found half of them just didn't seem right. I Googled LMS brake fret. Wizard models produce two brands, one from Mainly Trains, an Iain Rice design, and one from Kemilway. I got both, and found the Kemilway more useful. So in the end I used a whole mish mash of different brakes, with a lot of adjustment of the blocks and lengths of the arms, to arrive at this conclusion. The outside pull rods were perfect and (the first time I've encountered this) not overscale.

Outside pull rods add to the difficulties of making sufficient clearance between brake gear and wheels so that there are no short circuits. (I always think what a shame it is that brakes can't be made into pickups, but haven't thought up how to do that so far). On this loco I decided way back to have some sideplay on the front driver, knowing full well that would add to the difficulty at this stage, so there has to be an unrealistic distance between wheel and pull rod. This means the gap between brakes, pull rod and wheels is overscale.

It took me several hours of on and off thinking and a morning playing about with loose wires to come up with this, where nothing was fixed
20200312_133923.jpg
.
The other side after fixing was like this. Yes, brake blocks are a different type left side to right side of the loco...it's not perfect, very obviously. The uneven relative height of the brakes on the left hand side are more obvious still after the sandbox is fixed on.
20200315_173246.jpg



Here are prototype photos. As preserved, the loco had no sandbox between the driving wheels when I took the photos in 2013.
Attachments
Midland Compound 020.jpg
Midland Compound 027.jpg
Midland Compound 021.jpg
Midland Compound 019.jpg
Midland Compound 018.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:51 am

It was invaluable to have the Wild Swan GA drawing for all this and adding sanding gear. I'm not sure about copyright rights and wrongs but forebear from photographing that part of the drawing for that reason. It enabled me to make sense of the pictures that I took all those years ago that follow. I'm putting all these photos here simply in case any one else is making the same loco.

These pictures are all on the area of the front driving wheel. The footstep covers up much of the detail of the first two photos here. Of course what is practical to model is another matter. I've used 0.3mm wire for both steam supply and the stays, quite wrong of course. Basically I'm aiming to make a suggestion of the complications rather than make it dead accurate - a kind of "modelling impressionism" perhaps.
Midland Compound 055.jpg

Midland Compound 054.jpg

Midland Compound 052.jpg

Midland Compound 053.jpg

Midland Compound 051.jpg

Midland Compound 050.jpg

Midland Compound 049.jpg
Front driving wheel


So, on the brakes I got better (Kemilway) brake blocks on the left hand side but botched up putting the sandbox too close between the brakes. On the right hand side the brake blocks are I think the original pattern (that came with the kit), but got the sandbox better. If it wasn't whitemetal involved I'd have another go on the left, but I know that in a year or so I won't remember any of this and won't notice these shortcomings when I'm using the loco. All that will matter is that it works, and that all this paraphernalia doesn't cause any shorts. On my test track there is no problem. The sanding gear is further from the wheels and slightly higher than strictly prototypical so as not to touch the rails as well as the wheels. Of course the fixed wheels of rigid non-suspension makes all this much easier but I find talk of not putting in some form of suspension (as on another current thread) in P4 depressing. I'd rather put in proper suspension, then track laying is much easier as small irregularities don't matter.
Attachments
20200324_153543.jpg
20200324_152627.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:11 am

There are some problems that I can't change arising from having bought the kit partly built, tender complete. The loco frames seem to sag slightly at the cab. Whether that is the reason I don't know, but the bottom of rear footstep is too low - it should be above the level of the brake rigging - and doesn't match up with the tender front step.
20200406_121114.jpg

20200406_121027 (1).jpg

Photos show them not always precisely lining up, but nearer than this. So I've evened out the steps as far as I can.
20200411_104150.jpg

20200411_101949.jpg


Another problem is that I can't make the tender look at quite the right level on both sides, in its relationship with the loco level. There must be a slight twist in one or both. With the RHS level, on the LHS the tender looks slightly high at the front. All in all what I've done getting the loco and tender to match up has been rather duff and guesswork. One good thing was finding I've got a 10BA die, to cut more thread on the EMGS loco/tender coupling to bring them the correct distance apart, and finding that there is still enough clearance between them on a 4 foot curve.

With the front tender wheels back from Colin, with new centres in them free of charge, this now has 6 wheels again. Where (as here) the tender rests on the loco to give extra weight, and the front wheels are not supporting any weight, the problem is the same as the centre wheels of a six wheel coach, getting enough downward force to keep them on the rails on curves, as the sideplay required is considerable. I showed earlier the springs I made. I've realised the hornguides are not exactly parallel, hardly helpful for the free up and down movement required as well as hindering the revolution and freeom of sideplay of the wheels - but not bad enough that a lot of jiggling with Brasso hasn't solved. A very simple point, I've concluded, is that if there isn't enough downward force to make the wheels revolve it's likely they'll derail on any remotely challenging trackwork.

I made a countersink or start of a hole in the top of the bearings for the springs to locate into on all four sprung wheels (the centre pair use the normal Gibson springs) of the appropriate size.

Last task is to fix on the brake gear. Pull rods that came with the kit are not the same wheelbase as the actual chassis so there's something wrong somewhere. I just soldered 0.8 wire below the cross-shafts (if that's what they're called), and used Loctite 601 to fix the brakes permanently. The front springs on the outside of the tender don't exactly line up with the wheels. All in all I'm not buying an already started kit again - though I have done that recently to get a discontinued DJH CR Class 60. Whitemetal easily disassembled if need be. These various things are visible in the pictures.

20200411_100955.jpg
Countersinks are visible at the bottom of the hornblocks - more exactly sized ones are on the top face meeting the springs, without a cross-filing. The rear wheels are fixed height.

20200411_100844.jpg

Videos show loco gap to tender, and wheels positively being pushed by spring force or compensation weight into the track dip. Also at full speed.




Remaining now are the lubricators, then a huge clean up and painting. Dave Holt has kindly given valuable help on lubricator detail on his Black 5 thread. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6552&start=75

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:49 pm

Looks good Julian, and goes very smoothly.

I think the tender is sitting a bit high?
Mark Tatlow

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:15 am

Mark thanks for that thought - I assume you mean the tender front, not back. I'd thought the RHS was correct (I know the LHS isn't) but checking photos I see the tender chassis valance thingy (I don't know correct words) should line up with the bottom of the one on the loco, not the top as I've got it. Trouble is, the loco one is drooping a bit, but I'll try altering the level of the tender to look more like this and then the LHS might look better too.
Attachments
img20191208_20133455.jpg

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:47 pm

IMG_1037.JPG


Gibson lost wax lubricators drilled by a friend in our West Scotland 4mm Group. Better not drop them.... :roll: - hope the postie doesn't lose them!

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound Atomiser and Lubricators

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:50 pm

20200426_104035.jpg
Simplest atomiser detail I could find

20200426_104002.jpg
LH drive loco

Andrew our WS4mmG man who, to our constant debt and gratitude Does Things Properly, managed to drill 6 holes 0.4mm through one lubricator (Gibson lost wax) and two through the other, buying a carbide drill for the purpose.

The post has continued to keep the nation connected throughout the lockdown, and safely delivered them from Andy's home 40 miles or so away.

I started with the 2 holer on the RHS as a warm up to the LHS.

Rather unlikely, I had some 0.4mm brass tubing so lengths were inserted and Loctite fixed. I had been told on good authority 0.1mm wire would accurately represent the oil pipes. Even more unlikely I already had some of this.
20200420_114539.jpg
Don't want to lose this

The resulting pipework is I think slightly underscale, though with a layer of paint may end up more visible. It was Dave Holt on his Black 5 thread who used the tubing idea to represent the glands. These do look about right I think.
20200420_223146.jpg

20200420_223256.jpg

Establishing that 0.2 wire that I also happened to have does fit into the 0.4 tube I tried making a representation of the atomiser pipework. It looked right to me for thickness. With my extra close work glasses, and a magnifying glass, I managed to thread the 4 wires through the middle four of the six lubricator tubes (1 hour!). I hope no one will notice if they're not the correct ones...the whole thing has been guesswork from three pictures.
20200423_222021.jpg

20200424_083644.jpg

20200424_215521.jpg

20200425_113234.jpg

Then it was a matter of squashing it into place. I'd considered this assembly could be something to glue on after painting the rest of the loco, but there was no way that could be done, as the wires have a mind of their own. The atomiser was fixed first, then the rest persuaded into place.

0.2 is possibly slightly overscale, but detail has to be visible! - so on this side I'll make sure the wire isn't painted (somehow) and just use chemical blackener.

A week and a bit passed doing this but the weather has been too good for being indoors. The lockdown gives a curious sense of time being infinite, but I hope I don't spend too much of my remaining life being side tracked on such tiny details!

Very many thanks to Andy, and to Dave Holt for his advice and help on Pages 4 and 5 of his Black 5 thread.
Attachments
20200426_103703.jpg
20200426_103451.jpg
20200426_103518.jpg
20200426_103532.jpg

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Andy W
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Andy W » Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:02 pm

Wonderful sub-atomic scale weaving! Lovely work.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:05 pm

Excellent work there Julian. Fun aren't they. LOL.

Keep Safe

Dave

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:26 pm

Truly wonderful work Julian .... I am really enjoying watching this build unfold. - much inspiration :thumb
Last edited by Le Corbusier on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Lee

Julian Roberts
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:15 am

Thanks for the comments! I couldn't attach these pictures that came up on a Google search for "atomiser" to the last post, here they are. The diagram gave me the basic idea of how the four pipes relate to the lubricator box.

I've sorted the tender height a bit better now. Mark's comment prompted me to examine the height at the rear - it was possible, without making it too low at the buffers, to bring it down a couple of turns on the adjustment screws of the Gibson hornblock arrangement (there is no spring here on the rear wheelset). Coupled with some countersinking of the loco coupling the whole tender sits a little lower, matching the loco better.

Final WM bits are on now, just balance weights to do.
Attachments
ATOMISER 4.PNG
ATOMISER 4.PNG (133.94 KiB) Viewed 855 times
ATOMISER 3.PNG
ATOMISER 3.PNG (307.36 KiB) Viewed 854 times

Philip Hall
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Re: Gibson LMS Compound

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:53 am

Julian,

I really don’t know how you (and Dave) have the patience and dexterity for this kind of microscopic plumbing! Wonderful stuff.

Philip


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