"Terrier" Branchline chassis - Motor & Gearbox

[RAO]

I have acquired three Dapol Terriers and one unbuilt Branchlines Chassis dated 1989.

Can anyone provided guidance as to what motor & gearbox to use on this chassis.

Also is there another etched chassis on the market for the Terrier.

Thanks

[jim s-w]

This might help

viewtopic.php?t=5740

[Barry Davis]

Hi everybody,

I have 4 kit made steam outline locomotives that I did not make, that are each powered by a Mashima motor through a Branchline 2 stage gearbox.

These locomotives are about 25 years old and have travelled some considerable distances during this time, and now seem to have a common fault with the Branchline gear boxes, as in each gearbox, the steel worm gear that is attached to the electric motor shaft has worn-out one side of the brass idler gear wheel attached to it.

This worn brass gear wheel is attached to an idler shaft with a steel grub screw, but next to this brass gear wheel is a second brass gear wheel that seems to be superglued on to the same idler shaft, because this second gear is superglued on to the idler shaft it prevents the easy removal of the idler shaft for removal and replacement of the worn brass gear.

Has any one in the society had this same problem, and if so, can they help me by explaining how remove and replace this worn brass gear wheel.

Thanking anyone in advance

Barry
New Zealand

[nberrington]

Barry - have you tried the super glue debonder on it? It might get loose enough to use a gear puller on it.
I would probably just swap it out for a suitable High Level box though…

[Noel]

Superglue isn't the best thing to use to secure a gearwheel on a shaft, as it can be difficult to get the glue exactly where you want it in the quantities you want, it doesn't centre the gear on the shaft, and the resulting bond is weak in shear*. The usual advice would be to use Loctite 601 or similar, so this may be what you have, particularly given the age of the locos.

* If it really is superglue, then holding a metal rod at right angles to the shaft and sliding it along the shaft to tap the side of the gear a few times might be sufficient to break the bond.

[Edward45]

Provided there are no plastic parts involved, then acetone will degrade super glue. I speak from experience as when attempting to repair a ceramic pot with super glue I misaligned the parts. Soaking in acetone removed the super glue, I then used epoxy, which I should have done from the start.

[kelly]

Provided there are no plastic parts involved, then acetone will degrade super glue. I speak from experience as when attempting to repair a ceramic pot with super glue I misaligned the parts. Soaking in acetone removed the super glue, I then used epoxy, which I should have done from the start.

Isopropynol Alcohol will achieve the same results as well.

[Will L]

Not convinced there will be enough of the glue exposed for the chemicals to work, but, If it is superglued, and assuming there isn't any plastic about, just get it hot. The bond will give up at about 160/180c and the axle will be easy to remove. This applies equally to the various Loctites it might be.

[Barry Davis]

Thank you every one for your replies.

As Will L says, I don’t think that there is enough of the glue exposed for acetone to un-glue the idler gear. As there is no plastic near-by, I also thought of heating the brass gear wheel up with a clean soldering iron to break the superglue bond.

Thanks for the idea of using gear-puller nberrington, unfortunately there is insufficient room for a gear puller between the gear box sides and the driving wheels.
I also thought of replacing the gear box with another, but that would involve removing the main driving wheels from the gear box axle, and in my experience, usually results in broken spokes of the driving wheel.

I believe that Ultrascale (Gear Services) have replacement brass gear wheels for the Branchlines gearboxes, if I can remove the superglued idler gear, I am hoping to replace it with a Ultrascale replacement. Living 20,000 kilometres away makes just a wee bit more difficult.

I have a total of six steam outline locomotives with the same Branchlines gearbox, four of which have ceased. If I manage to get just one gear box working, I still will have five more to modify. If it all fails, I might be forced into scraping all my southern steam outline locomotives and replacing them with yet more Southern Region EMU’s (sounds like history repeating)

Cheers Guys
Regards
Barry

[Will L]

Thank you every one for your replies.

As Will L says, I don’t think that there is enough of the glue exposed for acetone to un-glue the idler gear. As there is no plastic near-by, I also thought of heating the brass gear wheel up with a clean soldering iron to break the superglue bond.

Or failing that, saw through the shaft the gears run on with a piercing saw. Getting a new bit of shaft the right diameter shouldn't be too difficult.

[davebradwell]

Might I suggest, Barry, a change to your lubrication regime as these gears should last for ever in this application. This saga is also a lesson that chassis shuold be built so that the wheels can be dropped out.

Returning to the original question re gearbox choice it must be apparent that most folk use High Level drives. The plastic gears are much quieter and mine have lasted forever.

DaveB

[Barry Davis]

Hi DaveB

I don’t think the problem is a lack of lubrication, as I regularly oil and lubricate all my locomotives.

In fact, I have three very old BSL models of Southern Railway 4 COR, 4BUF, and 6 PAN emu’s that are each powered by Tri-ang motor bogies fitted with replacement Southern Electric side frame. These have been running and are still running on my layout for nearly 50 years with the original worm and gear set-up. These were the first models that I made when I first started modelling in Protofour alongside the likes of the late Joe Brook Smith and Bill Richmond in the late 1960’s

As this problem has appeared in four gear boxes, I think the problem with the Branchlines gear box is that the brass gear in question has been manufactured ever so slightly eccentric.

I did not make these model locomotives, and I don’t think that High Level gear boxes were available when these models were first made.

Once again, thank you every one for your comments and suggestions.

Regards

Barry

[Jeremy Suter]

Hi Barry
I have recently had the same problem with a Branchline gear box and Exactoscale Gears, mine had Nylon worm running on a 50:1 Brass gear wheel, built in 2006. Regularly out at exhibition since then. The worm eventually took the teeth of the gear wheel. Like you getting the gear out was a nightmare, I hade to saw it out just to detach the motor from the gear box. I replaced the gear box with one exactly the same although this time I made the idler gears removable by detaching them from the axle before fitting and soldering the two gears together and slotting onto a new axle. Soldering a keeper plate over the sides of the gear box so the axle does not come out when in use and can still spin in the bearings and so do the gears on the axle. They might ware a bit on the axle but then the axle was and still is running in brass bearings with no ware on it I lubricated with clock oil once finished.

[davebradwell]

The situation does seem rather odd. As you say, the steel on brass combination used by Tri-ang would run for years with occasional lubrication. All gears are considered slightly eccentric - it's called "total composite error" - but this should be only the odd thou' or so. I'm wondering if perhaps the mesh is far too light, perhaps because of some eccentricity from incorrect mounting, resulting in the drive being just on the tooth tips and giving a high rate of wear.

Gears should run with the deepest possible mesh that allows free rotation.

The only time I've seen gears stripped was when the clock oil in the axle bearings was setting.

DaveB

[Barry Davis]

Hi everyone,

Unfortunately Jeremy, I can not remove the idler steel shaft from the gearbox from three of the locomotives as each is blocked either end by a pair of scale 6’-2” boxpox Bulleid driving wheels, i have un-screwed the grub screw and removed the steel worm gear from the motor shaft, likewise I have un-screwed the grub screw from the worn brass gear and it revolves freely on the idler shaft. I believe that I have about 5mm to 6mm of side play to remove the worn brass gear wheel and replace it with a replacement, if and only if, I can un-super glue the adjacent brass wheel.

I haven’t looked yet, but I might be able to remove the idler shaft completely from the forth locomotive, as it has been fitted into a Kemilway kit of a BR Standard class 3, 2-6-2 tank locomotive with smaller scale 5’-3” wheels.

Regarding the Tri-ang motor bogies DaveB, on the motor bogies that I fitted to three of my SR emu’s, both worm gears are brass driving a pair of nylon/plastic? gear wheels on the pair of driving axles. As a point of interest, I have only just replaced the carbon brushes on these motor bogies for the first time in 50 years.

Once again, thank you all for your input

Best regards
Barry

[davebradwell]

But earlier Tri-ang gears were all metal and there wasn't an issue with wear, as long as they were lubricated. Not so good dry, though.

DaveB