Rospeath Lane

[ginger_giant]

At the outset the main concern of mine was fitting Rospeath Lane v.2 in my car. Rule 1d of the Scalefour Jubilee Challenge stipulates "The layout has to be portable and capable of being transported by a single car or similar size vehicle and exhibited by two people". I'm surprised it doen't state that both operators have to be transported in the same car as the layout. As a cost saving exercise for exhibition managers I feel it would be prudent for both operators to travel with the layout.

The problem I face is Tredethy Wharf fills my car including the passenger seat. I've been relying on help at exhibitions from friends having their own transport. Also Rospeath Lane's footprint is larger than Tredethy Wharf which means there is more to fit in the car. This is why I've been worried about how I might achieve my objectives.

Since committing to the Scalefour Jubilee Challenge I've almost exhausted the grey cells in working out how to fit Rospeath Lane into the car. I have taken many measurements of the boot space along with all other nooks and crannies that could be used in the car. Much thought was then given to how to reduce the important clutter around the scenic section of the layout. In this I mean the support structure, lighting frame, control panel, cassette boards with blanking/information panels and tool box along with the all important operators stool for thous quiet moments.

The diagrams below hope to show how I visualise it all fitting in the car including a couple of small overnight bags for multiple day shows. Hope you can make sense of the drawings...

Jubilee Challenge Packing Car.jpg

Support structure.jpg

One way I'll be saving space is to use the storage box tops for the lighting frame. This, along with the back screen, will help to create an enclosed space to minimise external light flooding the layout. I'm also planning to include the control panel within Baseboard 2. The current support structure for Tredethy Wharf has improved the stability at the expense of taking up more spave in the car. My concern has been how to create a rigid support structure will reducing it's mass. I may have a solution in two trestles supporting and U girders, the proof being when its constructed.
To keep costs down I'll taking a leap of faith by adapting Tredethy Wharfs current legs for the trestles. So the hope is they will be a simplier solution for supporting Tredethy Wharf.

[Noel]

How do you secure it all? You do not want it moving in a sudden stop...

[ginger_giant]

I have some non slip matting that can be used if it looks like things will slide jn such an event.

[Hardwicke]

Experience with exhibitions has shown I need at least two good solid trestles to stop movement. The rest of the boards can be supported on simple legs.

[ginger_giant]

Thank you for confirming that two well built trestles will create a solid foundation.

Tredethy Wharf currently sits on a frame supported by five legs, this all takes up a great deal of space in the car. Mostly taking up the passenger seat.

I then considered integrating the legs into the baseboards. This idea was discounted due to;
1) the baseboards irregular shape
2) height I wish the track bed to be above floor level
3) the additional depth the baseboards would need to be to accommodate the legs and not foul any wiring etc.
4) the height restriction in the car.

I've seen a number of layouts supported on simple wooden trestles and I think some with beams slung between (Iain Rice's Ulysses and St. Merryn spring to mind). So, I then began to consider how to make the beams compact enough to fit in the car. It's still evolving and hopefully it will all come together and still fit in the car.

[ginger_giant]

My intended period for the model will eventually be March to July 1959.This will allow the majority of locomotives seen on shed to be steam but also allow me to run a few of the early Diesel shunters and Hydraulics.

This got me thinking about how the diesels would have been refuelled. Penzance didn't receive its first allocation of diesels until didn’t Sept 1958 when three Class 08s were allocated. In November of the same year, they reallocated two of the three, leaving one (D3514) which remained at Penzance until June 1968. The first Laira based Hydraulics started to appear at Penzance in 1958. My understanding is that D600 and D800 Warships carried a fuel capacity of 800 gallons. If this is correct, they would not have needed refuelling at Penzance for the return working. The Class 08 would still need to be refuelled. This would seem to indicate that Penzance’s diesel facilities may have been very basic in 1959. All photographs I’ve seen for the 1959 period do not show any diesel refuelling points. So have to assume that refuelling was very rudimentary, either direct from 50 gallon barrels or direct from rail or road born tanks.

Further information I've gathered from Diesel Depots, The Early Years by Irwell Press indicates that shed staff initially treated the first allocations of diesel locomotives with a modicum of disdain. The Class 08s being stored on sidings away from the main running shed roads. In taking a look at my track plan, I realised that there was no such siding to accommodate locos away from the main running shed roads. I wanted to include some sort of diesel refuelling so added a very short siding at the front. Between this siding and the running shed there will be room for some barrels of diesel fuel.

Jubilee Challenge v4 inc 08 siding.jpg

In adding this siding along with some slight overall modifications, I’ve managed to increase the scenic area to within the last square inch of the 2711.52sq ins.

Jubilee Challenge v4 square area.jpg

Baseboard tops have been purchase and cut to the new dimensions. Next task is to decide on how much of the plywood from version one of Rospeath Lane can be used in the baseboard construction.

I believe slow projects is better than none…

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ian,

early diesel refuelling at some locations was done using an ex MR/LMS tank wagon. The link shows several of the MR D838 type with a fuel pipe and nozzle attached. London Road Models do a kit for the tank wagon (but not the pipe and nozzle).

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmstank

Jol

[Terry Bendall]

I believe slow projects is better than none…

Definately!

And going back a bit, a picture of the sort of trestle I use.

Picture 434.jpg

The legs are from 45mm x 38mm timber and the cross rails from 70mm x 18mm - all sizes available from stock. Mine came from the local Wicks store. The chain at the bottom allows for the height to be varied.

I think some with beams slung between (Iain Rice's Ulysses and St. Merryn spring to mind).

The book about the building of St Merryn states that the beams were aluminium rectangular tube 77mm x 39mm in two parts joined by an internal "fishplate". The two beams were supported on testles at each end with a post supporting the middle.

and still fit in the car.

Layouts we have built have been designed to fit in a car, albeit a snug fit at times. The vehicle I have used have had roof bars integral to the structure so things like trestles have at times been carried on the roof.

Terry Bendall

[ginger_giant]

I like the look of that tripod trestle Terry. At under 3" thick when folded is a great space saver. This style might be a quick and better option than trying to butcherTredethy Wharf's current legs.

[steve howe]

I'm looking forward to inviting Rospeath Lane to our exhibition at Pool Academy when its complete Ian!

https://www.hfmrc.uk/Events

Steve

Chair, Helston & Falmouth MRC

[Winander]

I'm looking forward to inviting Rospeath Lane to our exhibition at Pool Academy when its complete Ian!

A mere 8 hour drive

[ginger_giant]

I'm looking forward to inviting Rospeath Lane to our exhibition at Pool Academy when its complete Ian!

A mere 8 hour drive

Let's not rule the possibility out. Where there is a will there is away.

[Terry Bendall]

I like the look of that tripod trestle Terry. At under 3" thick when folded is a great space saver. This style might be a quick and better option than trying to butcherTredethy Wharf's current legs.

They work for me Ian and the same design was used on Pulborough. A few detailed pictures may be useful. I make the trestles about 50mm wider than the width of the baseboard. All the joints are screwed and glued.

Picture 438.jpg

Picture 439.jpg

Picture 446.jpg

The fixing of the chain is more robust than just a nail and makes height adjustment easy.

Terry Bendall

[ginger_giant]

Thanks Terry, that gives me a better idea of how you've built the trestles and gives me more to think about.
Cheers

[ginger_giant]

Steel or Nickel Silver Rail?

This project has stalled a little since my last post, mainly due to time sent posting items on eBay in order to raise much needed funds. There was also the hosting of March's Scalefour Cumbrian Area Group meeting. During the meeting, I received some very helpful ideas about problems I was foreseeing with Rospeath Lane.

The major decision I was facing was what rail to use. This dilemma had been created after getting Tredethy Wharf out of storage. Much of the steel rail had deposits of rust. At our previous house, the layout had been within the house in a central heating room. Since our move to Cumbria, my hobby room is now a Log Cabin in the garden. During the reorganisation, the log cabin (after it was used for furniture storage) I noticed that some items felt a little damp. Finding rust on the rail should not have been a surprise, but is a big concern for Tredethy Wharf's future. I'd been planning on using steel rail for Rospeath Lane especially as I've a good amount of steel rail in stock. On checking this stock of rail some had also gained patches of rust while being storage. This was not good, I thought...

So what to do? Would running a dehumidifier in the cabin stop the rust, or should I use Nickel Silver rail instead? During the meeting, it was mentioned that high-Ni Nickel Silver rail has an appearance more like steel than standard Nickel silver. I was not aware of high-Ni Nickel Silver rail before, but it does sound to be the solution, so an order has been placed. In the meantime, I do have some standard Nickel Silver rail in stock which I might use for the coal sidings at the back of the layout. I'll make that decision when the high-Ni Nickel Silver rail arrives.

[Paul Cram]

The problem with the old Nickel silver rail is the tendancy to attrct dirt which then collects on the wheels of the rollling stock. I have a log abin and use an oil filled radiator bought from screwfix to keep the damp away. Hawes uses steel rail. We have used Hi nickel pn Lavenham but that is tsill under construction.

[Terry Bendall]

The layouts that we have built live in my wooden workshop in the garden. Heat is only on when I am in there - and that is not nearly often enough!
Some layouts have steel rail and others nickel silver - probably standard rather than high Ni since I have never knowingly bought any although some I have in stock is of unknown type having come from those who are now members of the model club in the sky. A quick check shows a bit of pitting on some 500mm leghths of steel rail but some 1 metre lengths are as clean as the day they were bought which was a long time back. For steel rail that is in stock athin coating of oil will stop rust.

No problems with rusting of the steel rail on the layouts and any dirt on nickel silver is easily removed by cleaning the track before an exhibition. The appearance of the rail does not cause me any concern and in any case it is only the top surface that is not painted.

Terry Bendall

[Tony Wilkins]

If you have purchased Nickel Silver rail from C&L in the past 10 years it will be Hi Ni as they don't sell anything else now. Other suppliers I can't vouch for.
Regards
Tony.

[Philip Hall]

My layout lives in the garden room and I decided early on that rail would be nickel silver, just in case there were corrosion problems over the years. In practice the odd lengths of steel I do have in sidings seems to be ok, but the room is kept at 12-15° during the winter nights.

My rail is probably 30 or more years old and therefore pre-dates Hi-Ni. Like Terry, the colour does not bother me, but then I have never subscribed to the view that steel rail looks like steel. It just doesn't, it looks grey and nothing like the highly polished almost chrome-like appearance of the prototype on a running line. Nor does dirt appear to be a problem. The last time the main running lines were cleaned was in June 2022, 22 months ago and I have only just cleaned part of it again (in the storage sidings) because of wiring work in the sidings and it seemed a good idea to give it a good rub over and vacuum before it was all littered with rolling stock again. I have found lumps of black crud in odd places like crossing noses but everything still runs well. I do make a point of putting plenty of pickups on an engine but even basic 0-6-0 tanks are ok.

A side benefit of this old rail (obtained from a friend having a clearout) is that the web thickness is somewhat less than modern production, which means it slides very easily into FastTrack bases. The top profile is also a touch less sharp square edged than modern stuff.

Philip

[Tony Wilkins]

My layout lives in the garden room and I decided early on that rail would be nickel silver, just in case there were corrosion problems over the years. In practice the odd lengths of steel I do have in sidings seems to be ok, but the room is kept at 12-15° during the winter nights.

My rail is probably 30 or more years old and therefore pre-dates Hi-Ni. Like Terry, the colour does not bother me, but then I have never subscribed to the view that steel rail looks like steel. It just doesn't, it looks grey and nothing like the highly polished almost chrome-like appearance of the prototype on a running line. Nor does dirt appear to be a problem. The last time the main running lines were cleaned was in June 2022, 22 months ago and I have only just cleaned part of it again (in the storage sidings) because of wiring work in the sidings and it seemed a good idea to give it a good rub over and vacuum before it was all littered with rolling stock again. I have found lumps of black crud in odd places like crossing noses but everything still runs well. I do make a point of putting plenty of pickups on an engine but even basic 0-6-0 tanks are ok.

A side benefit of this old rail (obtained from a friend having a clearout) is that the web thickness is somewhat less than modern production, which means it slides very easily into FastTrack bases. The top profile is also a touch less sharp square edged than modern stuff.

Philip

Hi Philip.
That sounds like some of the original P4 (Kings Cross ?) rail to me. Shame you can't get it any more.
Keeping the layout room warm is definitely beneficial.
Regards
Tony.

[Philip Hall]

Hi Tony,

It probably came, as far as my friend can remember, from the EMGS about 30 or even 40 years ago. I have a sample of the old Kings Cross rail and it is very similar, but not quite the same. I also have some Studiolith rail which is virtually unusable as it is heavily distorted vertically. It came out of the packet like that and it's a shame because the profile is good. However, having bought some current rail I prefer the old stuff! I am hoping that a further supply of this vintage will surface but I have to be patient!

Philip

[ginger_giant]

To fit Rospeath Lane into my current car I've calculated the trestles need to be less than 3" (75mm) thick when folded flat. On paper it looked achievable, but before this project progresses too far, I thought it wise to test the theory.

Trestle 1.jpg

Using a Terry's three leg design allows the single leg to be interleaved within the two main legs. It needs a chain or rope attached to stop the legs splaying out. I'm also considering whether the trestles need some levelling devices adding to the legs.

Trestle width.jpg

So far so good

[Neil Smith]

Looking good!

If you make the chain length adjustable, that will make the height adjustable, within limits.. one less thing to fit in the car?

All the best

Neil

[ginger_giant]

Looking good!

If you make the chain length adjustable, that will make the height adjustable, within limits.. one less thing to fit in the car?

All the best

Neil

A chain will give some height adjustment but also will help with levelling the layout along its length. I'm also thinking if shortening one or both of the pair of legs then adding a height adjustment device would help level the layout across its depth.

[Neil Smith]

A further thought, rather than a chain, lengths of threaded rods with bolts let into the horizontal leg braces, would be easier to adjust?