Phoenix Paints

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John Bateson
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Phoenix Paints

Postby John Bateson » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:34 am

I was about to order some Phoenix paints hoping to do some spraying now the better weather is here.
On their guidelines for the GCR set there is a note that states

This product is best brushed or sprayed at a temperature of below 10° Centigrade ( 50°F).

This caught me by surprise since I had always thought these paints needed a warm temperature.

Any thoughts from the painters here - or do I wait for winter with the windows of my shed wide open?

I have sent a query to Phoenix but a warning note there indicates (COVID etc) that responses might be slower then normal.

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
https://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:39 am

John,

I have just looked at the Phoenix website and below the Covid -19 section In the drop down menu there is a note about application of paints and temperatures. I think this will answer your questions.

Philip

Jeremy Suter
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Jeremy Suter » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:58 pm

Hi John
I was once told by a decorator that paint dried better in cold temperature and actually I have found that to be true.
Don't know why, but it might be the rate that the carrier solvent evaporates and traps some solvent nearer the surface of the object being painted I will be spraying some models over the next couple of weeks with Phoenix paints using the own air drying thinners. I don't expect any problems due to weather

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David Thorpe
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:55 pm

Some interesting hints and tips in the Phoenix site. Seems I've been doing quite a lot wrong.... (but have still manage decent results)

DT

jasp
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby jasp » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:38 pm

I see on the Precision website that they are selling Sharman wheels but not at the sort of prices Mike charged!
They are about twice the price of Alan Gibson driving wheels
Jim P

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:03 pm

jasp wrote:I see on the Precision website that they are selling Sharman wheels but not at the sort of prices Mike charged!
They are about twice the price of Alan Gibson driving wheels
Jim P


I wonder a bit about the availability and to a degree the quality. Mike understood his machines and so did Steve Hodgson after him, but various stories have done the rounds about the new owners not having much idea in that regard. I would hope those stories are incorrect, but at prices approximating to Ultrascale I would want assurances of engineering truth!

Philip

nigelcliffe
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:39 pm

jasp wrote:I see on the Precision website that they are selling Sharman wheels but not at the sort of prices Mike charged!
They are about twice the price of Alan Gibson driving wheels


Well, there's an opportunity for someone to step in and do it cheaper with new technology :-)

The photos on the Precision website suggest the tyre treads are at least as grooved as Gibson ones. So some polishing will be required before fitting to locos.

bécasse
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby bécasse » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:13 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:
jasp wrote:I see on the Precision website that they are selling Sharman wheels but not at the sort of prices Mike charged!
They are about twice the price of Alan Gibson driving wheels


Well, there's an opportunity for someone to step in and do it cheaper with new technology :-)

The photos on the Precision website suggest the tyre treads are at least as grooved as Gibson ones. So some polishing will be required before fitting to locos.

I had ordered four pairs of 9mm ø driving wheels (to EM standards, not P4) from Steve Hodgson before Precision took over (but after LRM decided not to take over the range) which were needed to build two IoM railcar bogies for a friend. I was told the order was on hold for a few months (which caused a lot of head-scratching as to how else I could make the required driving wheels) but eventually, once Precision took over the range, they arrived. Although it didn't matter for the purpose, the treads were badly scored then, almost exactly twenty years ago, and Precision told me that it was because the tools were worn out and near-impossible to replace. I can believe that, Mike was a fine practical engineer but his machinery definitely had a Heath-Robinson touch about it as if it were born in the post-war era of shortages when nothing reusable went to waste.

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jim s-w
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby jim s-w » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:21 am

nigelcliffe wrote:
Well, there's an opportunity for someone to step in and do it cheaper with new technology :-)

The photos on the Precision website suggest the tyre treads are at least as grooved as Gibson ones. So some polishing will be required before fitting to locos.


For at least a year now all the gibson wheels I’ve had have had a much smoother tyre surface than they used to.

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:55 am

We’re getting a bit off topic now so apologies to John, but I always finally clean wheels with a rubber abrasive wheel in a mini drill. That seems to smooth the tyre surface off quite a bit. I think Don Rowland wrote about polishing wheels in Scalefour News a long time ago. Sharmans were always a bit rough but this didn’t seem affect performance at all.

To get back to paint, I have always found Precision takes a long time to dry. In some cases it just didn’t dry at all and had to be stripped off. So maybe temperature does have something to do with it. Perhaps we should be installing industrial air conditioners and putting the winter woolies on when we paint?

Philip

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David B
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby David B » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:37 am

Wouldn't a smooth, shiny wheel have less adhesion than one which was a little rough? Is there a danger of over-polishing and reducing friction?

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:18 pm

David B wrote:Wouldn't a smooth, shiny wheel have less adhesion than one which was a little rough? Is there a danger of over-polishing and reducing friction?


Now that’s an interesting one, and I would always have shared that view. Until Mick Moore built a couple of LMS Crabs (MRJ 190) and found that the one with Ultrascale nickel wheels (which have a very fine finish) pulled more than the one with steel wheels - which also had a rougher finish. I think the conclusion was that the polished finish meant that there was more metal in contact with the rail surface than a rough one. And it also called into question the oft held view that a nickel tyre is inferior to a steel one for adhesion.

Philip

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John Bateson
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby John Bateson » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:38 pm

Precision takes a long time to dry.
Philip,
I suspect that with the caveats on temperature I may have to postpone the top coats, some black, some green, until it cools a little from what passes as a heatwave in N. Wales. The hobby room at 07:30 today was showing 25 degrees C.

And on the other topic, most of the wheels bought in the past couple of years all better than some of the older ones. Which should not matter to me anyway since I plan to put all my pickups in the tender. Now that is another sub-thread ...
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
https://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:31 pm

John, my workshop was pretty warm this morning too. Just about to see what it’s like now. But useful for getting filler and epoxy to harden.

On the other subject, I belong to the ‘masses of pickup’ brigade, so my tender engines collect on all drivers and at least four tender wheels. Some use the bogies as well. I find that less cleaning is needed as there are so many collection points.

Philip

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:47 am

Ref. Sharman Wheels.

The renewed availability of the range of Sharman wheels is a great benefit, especially for those of us who model the pre-group railways.

AFAIK, the tyres are turned on a auto lathe, not one of Mike's original Myfords. Mike originally turned the tyres with a locking groove on the inside and drilled a small hole through the rear face of the tyre which gave the "anti twist" feature referred to on the PPP site. Later he found that the roughness of the finish in the turned groove provided sufficient "grip" and omitted the small hole.

I asked David Stapleton about reintroducing the wheel range on a number of occasions. His reluctance included the reason that the dies were worn to a greater or lesser degree and some needed replacing. One batch of wheels I managed to persuade him to produce several years ago needed flash removing from the rear face of the wheels. However, those same ones shown on the PPP site look okay.

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johndarch
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby johndarch » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:36 am

I have been air brushing Phoenix Precision BR Freight Grey thinned with their Fast air drying thinners and it does what it says on the tin. In fact very fast! Temperature 18 -19 deg C.

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Horsetan
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Horsetan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:44 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Ref. Sharman Wheels.

The renewed availability of the range of Sharman wheels is a great benefit, especially for those of us who model the pre-group railways.

AFAIK, the tyres are turned on a auto lathe, not one of Mike's original Myfords. Mike originally turned the tyres with a locking groove on the inside and drilled a small hole through the rear face of the tyre which gave the "anti twist" feature referred to on the PPP site. Later he found that the roughness of the finish in the turned groove provided sufficient "grip" and omitted the small hole.

I asked David Stapleton about reintroducing the wheel range on a number of occasions. His reluctance included the reason that the dies were worn to a greater or lesser degree and some needed replacing. One batch of wheels I managed to persuade him to produce several years ago needed flash removing from the rear face of the wheels. However, those same ones shown on the PPP site look okay.


They're just selling off the remaining stock. Once they're gone, they're gone. I had the last BR 9F wheels.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:24 am

Horsetan wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Ref. Sharman Wheels.

They're just selling off the remaining stock. Once they're gone, they're gone. I had the last BR 9F wheels.


It therefore seems odd that they have catalogued what seems to be most, if not all, of the range, including quite a few that I haven't been able to buy for years.

Enigma
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Enigma » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:44 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Horsetan wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Ref. Sharman Wheels.

They're just selling off the remaining stock. Once they're gone, they're gone. I had the last BR 9F wheels.


It therefore seems odd that they have catalogued what seems to be most, if not all, of the range, including quite a few that I haven't been able to buy for years.

But have you checked they are actually in stock? They are showing lots of varieties but I doubt that they are all available.

Alan Turner
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Alan Turner » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:59 pm

Enigma wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Horsetan wrote:
Jol Wilkinson wrote:Ref. Sharman Wheels.

They're just selling off the remaining stock. Once they're gone, they're gone. I had the last BR 9F wheels.


It therefore seems odd that they have catalogued what seems to be most, if not all, of the range, including quite a few that I haven't been able to buy for years.

But have you checked they are actually in stock? They are showing lots of varieties but I doubt that they are all available.


Yes just ordered some 4' - 10" wheels from them.

regards

Alan

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Horsetan
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Horsetan » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:11 pm

A fair few of the P4-profile stuff is already sold out. 9F, Britannia, SECR "H" wheels gone already. Think the GW 6'8" size is also gone in one of the crank variations.

I had a set of 4' 12-spk o/s for the BR Class 11 shunter. One or two of the wheel centres looked a touch ropey. The 9F wheels are showing quite a bit of flash between the spokes next to the crankpin.

You could always take a gamble and buy the "OO" (formerly "B"-)profile versions (still available) and see if the tyres and flanges can be skimmed down, though.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Enigma
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Enigma » Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:47 pm

I know this is not a 'Sharman Wheels' thread - but it's the latest one discussing them. I've just bought some wheels for a Dean Goods from AG. The 'project box' (ie box of assorted) bits I had contained, along with the Mainline body and some Mallard (I think) etched chassis parts, some Sharman wheels. It wasn't until I started the build that I realised they were EM profile hence the procurement of the AG ones. Using a B2B gauge I always check the correct length for the axle compared to the ones supplied and found that they were slightly to short. No matter, I thought, the Sharman ones are over length so I'll just turn them down. Hmmm. I don't know what the material these Sharman axles are made of but the steel has taken the edge off my lathe tool very quickly and left a poor finish. I suspect they may well be some stainless stock - which I doubt Mike would have supplied as I remember turning his axles quite easily BITD. I'm sure his were plain free turning silver steel. I've found some silver steel in my stash which I'll now try and use - but the lathe tool will take quite a bit of fettling to get sharp again!

Philip Hall
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:17 pm

I have had some Sharman axles (and others) over the years which didn’t turn nicely, being quite hard and rough. My favoured material now is steel that has been supplied to me by Ultrascale, which turns beautifully to a nice finish. As you have found, sometimes an AG axle is too short which is the usual reason for a substitute.

EM profile wheels are not beyond use, though. Mike’s original profile (I think) required P4 users to turn a shade off the back of the tyre which rendered it close to a P4 profile. I have some EM wheels, some Sharman, some Maygib, and the root radius is almost the same, if not slightly less than in P4. Turning (or even filing) the back off the wheel gives you a P4 tyre but with a slightly deeper flange, and this can be reduced with a file back to the normal dimensions. It’s worth a try and saves throwing wheels away! There is no need to touch the running surface of the tyre so concentricity (or lack of, it does happen!) is not affected.

Philip

Clive Impey
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Clive Impey » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:41 pm

In S4News number 5 there is a very useful article on machining Sharman wheels to P4 standards.

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Horsetan
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Re: Phoenix Paints

Postby Horsetan » Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:40 am

Clive Impey wrote:In S4News number 5 there is a very useful article on machining Sharman wheels to P4 standards.


Worth having a look at.....
That would be an ecumenical matter.


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