GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
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GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Many years ago I started on project to 'upgrade' a pair of 'original' Airfix B-set coaches started in early 2013 that I recorded in a RmWeb blog in February 2019 (!) at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/176 ... t-upgrade/ ... since then once again the project has been stalled again due to other projects and house renovations and moves and only in the last two weeks I've picked it up again. To recap so far:
The body is correctly dimensioned but many details are wrong and the underframe needs serious changes. I have tried to use as much of the original as possible. In an attempt to turn them into a better representation of the real thing I've:
- blocked off the incorrect extra guard's window on the left hand side
- carved off the end detail and replaced the emergency brake gear on the outer ends only
- carved off the old grab rails and door handles, dug out the pockets and put in wire replacements
- re-done the under frame, relocating the battery boxes and correcting the brake cylinder pull rods and V-hangers for a hand braked vehicle, replacing the headstocks with straight ones
- carving the buffers at inner end to be a representation of short buffers
Now I've picked the project up I'm now:
- replacing the outer end ones with long square shank buffers (first rigid castings, replaced them with sprung square shanked buffers by MJT
- additionally detail the bogies by adding tie bars and modifiying the bolster spring detail as the originals are rather thin (I've had two goes at this)
- added the guards steps to the under frame from a Comet coach detailing kit
- make a 'fixed' inner close coupling to join the pair to make a B-Set
- added Dingham couplings to the outer end
This I've done to one coach and in progress with the other one
Still to do:
flush glaze
add number / guard / luggage / max weight decals, numbered for a Bristol area set
A couple of photos of progress so far:
The body is correctly dimensioned but many details are wrong and the underframe needs serious changes. I have tried to use as much of the original as possible. In an attempt to turn them into a better representation of the real thing I've:
- blocked off the incorrect extra guard's window on the left hand side
- carved off the end detail and replaced the emergency brake gear on the outer ends only
- carved off the old grab rails and door handles, dug out the pockets and put in wire replacements
- re-done the under frame, relocating the battery boxes and correcting the brake cylinder pull rods and V-hangers for a hand braked vehicle, replacing the headstocks with straight ones
- carving the buffers at inner end to be a representation of short buffers
Now I've picked the project up I'm now:
- replacing the outer end ones with long square shank buffers (first rigid castings, replaced them with sprung square shanked buffers by MJT
- additionally detail the bogies by adding tie bars and modifiying the bolster spring detail as the originals are rather thin (I've had two goes at this)
- added the guards steps to the under frame from a Comet coach detailing kit
- make a 'fixed' inner close coupling to join the pair to make a B-Set
- added Dingham couplings to the outer end
This I've done to one coach and in progress with the other one
Still to do:
flush glaze
add number / guard / luggage / max weight decals, numbered for a Bristol area set
A couple of photos of progress so far:
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
My interest is in the E145 B-Sets, due to the fact that, in 1961-62 at least, B-Sets to this design were evidently allocated to the carriage working circuits for the S&D's branch from Evercreech Jc to Highbridge. So far as I can tell, the only substantial difference between the E140 and E145 diagrams lies in the fact that 9' 0" WB plate bogies were fitted to the E145s, rather than the 7' 0" WB bogies fitted to the E140s That makes conversion of the Airfix/Dapol B-Sets to the later diagram a fairly straightforward proposition, but one that poses a couple of conundrums.
First, exactly what form did the centre coupling between the two carriages forming the set take? I've seen the composite picture which I think was published by Tim Venton showing several variants of this coupling as applied to the E147 and (I think) the E129 designs, but never found details of the centre coupling applied to the E145 sets. Closest I've so far come to such information is a side view showing what I take to be a hanging coupling link: If you or anyone else has further details of the centre coupling for this diagram I'd be interested to see it.
Second, the recesses for the door and commode handles (not sure that's quite the correct terminology) are problematic. The Airfix body represents the commode handles as a raised vertical moulding centrally in the rebate but completely omits the corresponding rebate for the door handle, instead representing this as a plate standing proud of the bodyside. I'm on the lookout for a method of cutting a rebate to a consistent and accurate size to receive the door handle, and would welcome suggestions as to how this might be done. My experience of using a powered burr to excavate a rebate in plastic suggests that this is a method that yields neither accuracy nor consistency, so, again, suggestions would be welcome.
First, exactly what form did the centre coupling between the two carriages forming the set take? I've seen the composite picture which I think was published by Tim Venton showing several variants of this coupling as applied to the E147 and (I think) the E129 designs, but never found details of the centre coupling applied to the E145 sets. Closest I've so far come to such information is a side view showing what I take to be a hanging coupling link: If you or anyone else has further details of the centre coupling for this diagram I'd be interested to see it.
Second, the recesses for the door and commode handles (not sure that's quite the correct terminology) are problematic. The Airfix body represents the commode handles as a raised vertical moulding centrally in the rebate but completely omits the corresponding rebate for the door handle, instead representing this as a plate standing proud of the bodyside. I'm on the lookout for a method of cutting a rebate to a consistent and accurate size to receive the door handle, and would welcome suggestions as to how this might be done. My experience of using a powered burr to excavate a rebate in plastic suggests that this is a method that yields neither accuracy nor consistency, so, again, suggestions would be welcome.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
John Palmer wrote:welcome suggestions as to how this might be done
If, and it is a fairly large if, you could drill a hole accurately and of sufficient size, you could 3D print the recess and handle into a plug to go into the hole. The bits that appear to be brass wire are also in recesses aren't they? Neither recess appears to be conveniently round, so the only other way I can think of is some milling operation of a miniature nature.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Richard, your suggestion aligns very closely with thoughts I had been turning over, although I had been thinking in terms of a length of plug material fashioned from styrene and bored to receive an etched door T-handle. Along these lines:
A further point to note is that the rebate for the door handle is extended across the edge of the door into the adjoining door frame. This can be seen by careful examination of Sir John Betjeman's film 'Branch Line Railway' at 1:38, where he is with great glee entering the first class compartment of an E145 at Evercreech Junction!
This approach may be worth a trial run on a scrap piece of styrene representing the carriage side before committing to an attack on the Airfix moulding itself.
It seemed to me that after initially boring through the carriage side, the resulting bore could be enlarged and shaped with a needle file of square cross section just sufficiently to permit insertion of the plug, which would be pre-formed so as also to serve as a sizing gauge. I envisage use of a depth stop as illustrated to set the plug to a consistent depth from the outer face of the carriage side.A further point to note is that the rebate for the door handle is extended across the edge of the door into the adjoining door frame. This can be seen by careful examination of Sir John Betjeman's film 'Branch Line Railway' at 1:38, where he is with great glee entering the first class compartment of an E145 at Evercreech Junction!
This approach may be worth a trial run on a scrap piece of styrene representing the carriage side before committing to an attack on the Airfix moulding itself.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
John, I can see that your cunning plan should work now I've had a look at the prototype. The grab handle is in a recess, is that on the model? If not, perhaps you could combine them?
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Close up of the recessed handles - not an E140/E145.
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Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
I am not surprised by the bursts of inspiration of how to deal with the problem of modifying those poorly represented (by airfix) handle pockets, thanks guys. I have to say I did it the hard way with a drill the diameter of the pocket hand turned to get most of the depth and a Swan Morton no. 2 blade and files to carve the pockets out to final shape / size and it probably shows. Harder for me with my hand craft was to get a consistent size of the handles themselves, and that shows too! Also, it took me a while to realise, (as per the photo that Tim V supplied, but it was watching that John Betjeman film that alerted me), that the door handle pocket actually runs across the edge of the door into the body. How complicated could the GWR get in the search for maximum width?
Last edited by peterbkloss on Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
In addition, I debated with myself between E140 and modifying with the suggested bogie swap to an E145. I believe that Tim V himself 'made' a few E145s for Clutton! I settled on an E140 as my layout still under construction is a meld of GWR in Bristol area / Somerset and S&D so I felt an E140 pair more appropriate, plus with a body and bogie change (just to give blue painted axlebox tops) I could have an E140 pair in Chocolate and Cream in as built condition for a 1930 period change (I have a pair of paint stripped bodies with most of the handle pockets carved out) ...
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
This is useful stuff gents and timely as I’m just looking at my pool of B Set coaches and kits. I’ve the full suite of E116, E129,E140, E145 and E147 to do.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
peterbkloss wrote:In addition, I debated with myself between E140 and modifying with the suggested bogie swap to an E145. I believe that Tim V himself 'made' a few E145s for Clutton! I settled on an E140 as my layout still under construction is a meld of GWR in Bristol area / Somerset and S&D so I felt an E140 pair more appropriate, plus with a body and bogie change (just to give blue painted axlebox tops) I could have an E140 pair in Chocolate and Cream in as built condition for a 1930 period change (I have a pair of paint stripped bodies with most of the handle pockets carved out) ...
I ended up building the full suite - as in Andrew's list!
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Hi, I had asked on a previous thread about the short buffers used between these coaches and offered to do some castings if someone could provide good pictures and a few dimensions but only got a couple of murky pictures. Anyone?
Cheers,
Dave Franks
Lanarkshire Models.
Cheers,
Dave Franks
Lanarkshire Models.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Dave,
Brian Morgan sent me the attached drawing of the E140/E145 buffers, I hope this will be of use to you. As for photos the only one I know of were the ones on Tim's web site many moons ago.
Dave
Dave Franks wrote:Hi, I had asked on a previous thread about the short buffers used between these coaches and offered to do some castings if someone could provide good pictures and a few dimensions but only got a couple of murky pictures. Anyone?
Brian Morgan sent me the attached drawing of the E140/E145 buffers, I hope this will be of use to you. As for photos the only one I know of were the ones on Tim's web site many moons ago.
Dave
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Pictures of the E140/E145 buffers are in the Cornish special edition of the Great Western Rail Journal - summer 1992.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Thanks Dave K. I'll have a look at that, presumably the bolts are in the corners of the square flange, does this show in photos.
Dave F.
Dave F.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Dave F,
This is the only close up photo I have of the E140/147 buffers is attached and does show the bolts in the corners. This came from Tim Venton's web site.
Dave K
Dave Franks wrote:Thanks Dave K. I'll have a look at that, presumably the bolts are in the corners of the square flange, does this show in photos.
This is the only close up photo I have of the E140/147 buffers is attached and does show the bolts in the corners. This came from Tim Venton's web site.
Dave K
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Dave Franks wrote:Hi, I had asked on a previous thread about the short buffers used between these coaches and offered to do some castings if someone could provide good pictures and a few dimensions but only got a couple of murky pictures. Anyone?
Cheers,
Dave Franks
Lanarkshire Models.
Definitely interested in two sets and I hope some others are too to make it worth Frank's while! Thank you Frank for being willing to do this, they will look much better than my hand carved effort!
Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Looking at the photo, am I right in saying the bolts look as if they are closer together on the side than the top i.e. not exactly in the corners, that's assuming the flange is square as the drawing shows. GW had a thing for the side bolts being closer together.
I'll check tonight in the club library what GW books are there.
Dave Franks.
I'll check tonight in the club library what GW books are there.
Dave Franks.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade - almost done
This blog thread has not been updated for a while, my excuse is too much other stuff going on including actually modelling instead of writing about modelling
In fact I've been beavering away trying to complete this upgrade, its taken way to long to do (almost 10 years !!), so I've tried to focus on finsihing off all those tiny but time consuming tasks on my 'to do' list.
The most agravating part has been working on the bogies, MJT single torsion bar with the original Airfix bogie sides stuck on. The bogies suffered from the 'curse of the press stud', ie did not freely rotate and getting the ride height right was almost impossible simply because a press stud has no adjustment. So I did a home made conversion to a twin torsion bar (apologies to Dick Petter and Palatine models for the idea) without dismantling the core brass parts of the bogies, soldering the replacement wires the full width of the bogie frame, so now having read S4 News 184 I realise why Dick Petter's 'inboard' brackets for the replacement wires were such a good idea - my home made version suffered from sagging in the middle as load was applied. My get around was to drill 4 more 0.5mm holes in the side frame tops and feed two more 0.5 mm wires across to stop the sag - a lot of wire but quick to do. fixing one and of the wire stops the frames from lozenging as well. I'm learning the hard way, and yes I'll be ordering the real thing from Palatine models for all those unbuilt MJT bogie kits I've accumulated over the years ....
The Airfix side frames have had the bolster springing detail 'boosted' and tie bars added, the single end footsteps have also been made from scrap brass and added to the 'outward' end
A photo of the bogies, work in progress
The rubbing plates on the body had the press studs de-soldered and drilled through, 8BA screws inserted from above. A trial assembly proved the running was much better than before (breathe sigh of relief)
One coach has had most of the remaining underframe work done (add sprung buffers on outward end, end couplings: Dingham outward, Hunt couplings on inner end, guard's steps added), repair some minor damage from a year in storage.
Both have now been trial run on my layout (under construction)
First the pair on the functioning end of my slidey slidey fiddle yard ....
and then in tow by my ex BGP Jinty, the only functioning six coupled loco on the layout (!) for trial running
A little bit of fine tuning to be done (adding a little more weight) and then its painting all the bare bits from the tiny bogie and body updates followed by glazing and transfers to be done!
In fact I've been beavering away trying to complete this upgrade, its taken way to long to do (almost 10 years !!), so I've tried to focus on finsihing off all those tiny but time consuming tasks on my 'to do' list.
The most agravating part has been working on the bogies, MJT single torsion bar with the original Airfix bogie sides stuck on. The bogies suffered from the 'curse of the press stud', ie did not freely rotate and getting the ride height right was almost impossible simply because a press stud has no adjustment. So I did a home made conversion to a twin torsion bar (apologies to Dick Petter and Palatine models for the idea) without dismantling the core brass parts of the bogies, soldering the replacement wires the full width of the bogie frame, so now having read S4 News 184 I realise why Dick Petter's 'inboard' brackets for the replacement wires were such a good idea - my home made version suffered from sagging in the middle as load was applied. My get around was to drill 4 more 0.5mm holes in the side frame tops and feed two more 0.5 mm wires across to stop the sag - a lot of wire but quick to do. fixing one and of the wire stops the frames from lozenging as well. I'm learning the hard way, and yes I'll be ordering the real thing from Palatine models for all those unbuilt MJT bogie kits I've accumulated over the years ....
The Airfix side frames have had the bolster springing detail 'boosted' and tie bars added, the single end footsteps have also been made from scrap brass and added to the 'outward' end
A photo of the bogies, work in progress
The rubbing plates on the body had the press studs de-soldered and drilled through, 8BA screws inserted from above. A trial assembly proved the running was much better than before (breathe sigh of relief)
One coach has had most of the remaining underframe work done (add sprung buffers on outward end, end couplings: Dingham outward, Hunt couplings on inner end, guard's steps added), repair some minor damage from a year in storage.
Both have now been trial run on my layout (under construction)
First the pair on the functioning end of my slidey slidey fiddle yard ....
and then in tow by my ex BGP Jinty, the only functioning six coupled loco on the layout (!) for trial running
A little bit of fine tuning to be done (adding a little more weight) and then its painting all the bare bits from the tiny bogie and body updates followed by glazing and transfers to be done!
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
This rather puts the kibosh on any work on the Hornby/Dapol/Airfix B-sets
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175724-ra ... nt-4999572
They look good
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175724-ra ... nt-4999572
They look good
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
As you say Tim. I do wish they had done E147 instead, though...
Regards
Noel
Noel
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Equally you might say it was a pity they didn't choose the E129 design to supersede the K's version with sides thick enough to do a light cruiser justice. However, I won't quibble with Rapido's choice, given that substitution of 9' plate bogies gives you an instant E145 set.
They certainly appear to be a distinct improvement on the Airfix/Dapol offering, notably in the recesses associated with the door and commode handles, and I like the attention given to what I take to have been the steam heat through pipe, complete with its prominent drain. Casting a highly critical eye over Rapido's pictures, I wonder whether they may have positioned the upper elements of the train alarm gear a bit low; to my eye the cross-rod and related equipment appear to have been located closer to eaves level. Also, the moulding in relief of the jumper cables is rather clumsy, and I would want to replace these with wire or plasric monofilament.
Although I have laid in all the bits and pieces needed for an upgrade of my elderly Airfix conversions to E145s, I'm now quite tempted by the Rapido offering, even though the employment of B-Sets of any kind on S&D Branch passenger services falls well outside the period we are seeking to represent that line.
They certainly appear to be a distinct improvement on the Airfix/Dapol offering, notably in the recesses associated with the door and commode handles, and I like the attention given to what I take to have been the steam heat through pipe, complete with its prominent drain. Casting a highly critical eye over Rapido's pictures, I wonder whether they may have positioned the upper elements of the train alarm gear a bit low; to my eye the cross-rod and related equipment appear to have been located closer to eaves level. Also, the moulding in relief of the jumper cables is rather clumsy, and I would want to replace these with wire or plasric monofilament.
Although I have laid in all the bits and pieces needed for an upgrade of my elderly Airfix conversions to E145s, I'm now quite tempted by the Rapido offering, even though the employment of B-Sets of any kind on S&D Branch passenger services falls well outside the period we are seeking to represent that line.
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
The K's set was an E116.
It can be improved a lot.
E129/E147 are both by Comet.
It can be improved a lot.
E129/E147 are both by Comet.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Oh, was it? Sorry, my mistake! Sadly I never got round to assembling mine.Tim V wrote:The K's set was an E116.
I believe E129s were the first B-Set design to find regular employment on the S&D in 1959, although I'm now wondering whether I've mis-identified these and that they were instead of the E116 variety. Need to look further into that...
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
Tim V wrote:This rather puts the kibosh on any work on the Hornby/Dapol/Airfix B-sets
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/175724-ra ... nt-4999572
They look good
Yes I saw the announcement yesterday and thought 'oh gosh its taken me years to not even finish my Airfix upgrade and look what happens'
so it goes .... however I'm happy for the effort it will save so many modellers (?) to create the real thing, it was a very good choice considering the utility of the E140, being so commonly used anywhere West and South of Swindon. And then there is the easy bogie swap for the E145. I believe that of all the varieties of B-Set built these two types were the most numerous too.
for myself I'm happy I'm so far from a model store of anykind and will continue guilding the swine of an Airfix set (!)
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Re: GWR E140 B-Set Airfix upgrade
I think I have about ten B-sets, so I'm not expecting to replace all those ...
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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