MRJ No. 1 challenge

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby peterbkloss » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:16 pm

Just desk work today, looking at photos of my prototype, Mike Arlett and David Lockett's excellent compilation of David's Father Norman Lockett's photographs 'Great Western Steam in the West Country' has no less than four pages devoted to the Clevedon auto train, two of them in colour! So, what an eye opener:

bécasse wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:I'm still puzzled by the toolbox locations ....


Airfix located them alongside the splashers to provide clearance for the coupling rods.

One or two locos, 1442 for example, had the LHS toolbox located there but not the RHS one, and a handful of locos 4871/1471, 5810 and 5811 are examples, had both toolboxes in the "Airfix" position. 1471 didn't get its top feed until late though.


Thanks for the prompt to check the toolbox positions - and lo, 1463, my chosen prototype, only has one toolbox, next to the LHS splasher. The RHS has none - I hadn't noticed so I'll need to fix that on the body.

Other things I observed are that the BR emblems have Lions facing forward (the early version, not approved by the college of Heralds) and that the bunker grab rails are spot on the lining (in the last photo, there are pre-drilled holes under the lining ready ....)

Regards and have a good weekend, Peter

stevemcclary
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby stevemcclary » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:51 am

While recently completing a couple of 48xx I looked through a number of photographs trying to work out the toolbox positions.

I believe all the class including 58xx were built with the toolbox central to the splasher. The majority of the locos had them moved forward at some stage. The earliest seen was 4830 in the original 'Great Western' livery. The photographs also appear to show that all examples with the toolbox mounted in the original position do not have the bunker steps on the fireman's side which were a later addition, possibly indicating both modifications were done at the same time.

There are a number of examples with locos missing the toolbox on the Fireman's side including 1407 & 1444. More interestingly are pictures showing some examples with a forward toolbox on the Fireman's side, with the driver's side remaining central to the splasher. Examples of this include 1421, 1427, 1439 & 1468.

I am not sure why the toolboxes were moved, perhaps to afford the spare lamps better protection when running forward, as these lamp brackets were relocated at the same time.

You definitely need to go from a photograph of your chosen model.

Steve

petermeyer
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby petermeyer » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:23 am

Silly question but were toolboxes permanently fixed? The name suggests they were removable.

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Noel
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Noel » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:17 am

petermeyer wrote:Silly question but were toolboxes permanently fixed? The name suggests they were removable.


They were/are designed to be openable in situ, including under saddle and pannier tanks, so there is no obvious reason for them to be removeable in service. Clearly they could be moved at Works visits, but you wouldn't want loose toolboxes on a moving loco, so I assume they were bolted to the footplate [or whatever else they were located on].
Regards
Noel

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge - body near done, chassis wars

Postby peterbkloss » Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:12 pm

A quick update on my 14XX refresh / refurb project

Having had good weather I've been outside and away from the modelling room, so slow progress. However, I thought I'd post a few shots of the loco with body nearly done: the battery box RH rear, footplate area pipe work, vacuum pipes, couplings and smokebox number still to do. RH toolbox gone as per prototype. Lion facing forward both sides also as per 1463 in 1960 from David Lockett's photos.

Left side rear view

14XX-99pcdone-3QLRvw.jpg


Right side front view

14XX-99pcdone-3QRFvw-2.jpg


Chassis still being worked on, the brake gear and sand boxes will not be fitted and repainting won't be done before it runs smoothly. The issues identified thanks to reader's hints are: (1) rods not quite the right length, possibly too long. This is being carefully checked and worked on, it is certainly better but not yet perfect (2) The driver axleboxes were too slack in the hornblock guides (the 'basic' pattern) and could both twist and (aargh) move back and forth. I obviously was too entusiastic with making them move freely, filing the slots too much, and setting the guides too far apart when soldering them in when making them. This is an obvious source of poor running as the slop caused the rear drivers to rock and jump during motion, and the twisting hornblocks locking in the guides preventing the flexichas system working too. This has been fixed by taking the slack out by packing the hornblock guides for the time being, there is now no slack movement, (the blocks are being 'pushed back' by a shim at the front edge, allieviating problem (1)!!). A bodge and really the hornblocks need replacing but that means stripping everything and starting again, eventually I'll have to do that). (3) The axleholes in the axleboxes for the rear drivers were over sized too, again over-enthusiasm with a taper broach - I've replaced the boxes and now no slop. (4) The drivers by now were really loose on the axles with so much dismantling / reassembly and quartering checking so they've been replaced too - I had a spare set of 14XX Gibson wheels (5) the flexichas pivot between rear drivers and rear carrier wheels is too far forward (a subject of many other threads ...) so it is all too easy with the torque to the front drivers for the whole loco to subtly topple (only very slightly) to the side enough for one of the leading drivers to loose contact with the rails, a recipe for erratic running and derailing, worse when running forward. More lead in the body and moving the pivot point back is being investigated ... plus the rear end of the flexichas beam needs to be bent up at bit as the rear of the loco still sits a bit high and the footplate is not level.

With so many errors it is a miracle it ever worked at all. It did at first, but the chassis has seen a number of changes (aka heavy rebuilding inc changing gearbox, motor, pickups) that have involved shoving and sawing that probably caused some distortion since it was first built and I also blame heavy handling on my part ....

(yes a new chassis might have been quicker but its out of my budget right now ...)
Last edited by peterbkloss on Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge - body near done, chassis wars - postscript

Postby peterbkloss » Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:16 pm

Oh I forgot the obvious, yes the quartering has been carefully checked and as far as I can see it is fine, the spokes do line up as they should and with the new drivers the quartering does not wander.

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Paul Willis
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jul 23, 2022 7:56 pm

A good set of faults diagnosed. Very comprehensive work.

As you allude to, perhaps the combination of one or more minor things caused problems, even if some of the individual elements would not be a significant problem on their own.

Proof of the need for care at all stages, but also that many issues are simple to fix. Even if (like over-reaming a hole), prevention is better than cure!

I hope that the rest of the stages go well for you, and the finishing line is in sight.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

petermeyer
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby petermeyer » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:55 pm

Peter Kloss wrote:rods not quite the right length, possibly too long.


Those don't look like Perseverance rods which are usually more slender. Are they the rods from the Airfix 14xx? Maybe that's why there's a missmatch.

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge - those rods

Postby peterbkloss » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:04 pm

The rods are perservence two layer rods from the chassis kit I believe. Defo not the Airfix ones! (I did the original build in 2008 so I can't exactly remember the details of the original build!!)

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge - chassis redone

Postby peterbkloss » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:35 pm

A quick update on progress - yesterday I removed the rear drivers and trailing wheels to safely remove the flexichas compensation beam. Tricky as I found that the pivot for the rod would not budge, I had hoped to 'drive it' out, but no. In the end I had to saw through with a fine piercing saw blade, fretting that I might be distorting the frame again through heavy handling ... then to make a new pivot hole on each side, nearer the rear axle, opened up gently in stages to minimise the pressure on the frame.

The result .... the new holes are to place the trailing wheel-pivot-rear driver spacing ratio to be 1:2 instead of the other way around - in the picture the larger forward hole in the frame is the original location, the slightly smaller hole further back is the new location (I hope that is visible)

14XX-pivotmove.jpg


A new pivot and sleeve for the beam had to be made since I destroyed the original (easy task), solder on the beam (to make it perpendicular to the sleeve not so easy, lots of pins on my heat resistant board) and this is it re-installed

14XX-pivotmove-3.jpg


Re-assembly and trial running of this (I've removed the dummy outer frames and axlebox casting for this operation as it got in the way of moving the beam, the new holes are hidden by the outside framing) has transformed the running. Running backwards is really smooth, there is a slight stiffness at one rotational point running forward which I've yet to cure, it is something to do with the gear box as it happens with the rods disconnected.

14XX-testing.jpg


I have added a little more weight at the front end, but with the pivot moved the chassis runs well without a body on top now - thanks to those who have written about compensation beam pivot locations in other threads, that gave me the clue that I really had to do this

Thats it for now

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby peterbkloss » Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:02 pm

A quick update, the chassis with some extra fiddling with quartering now almost runs perfectly. I have had loads of troubles with the Iain Rice style hanging pickups (phosphor bronze strips bent over from little bits of pcb on the top inside of the frame, reaching down to the lower edge of the tyre with a small bit of brass wire soldered on to improve the conductivity - well nearly as Iain Rice's recipe, but I couldn't make the top bend without the strip breaking so the 'U' bend is in brass and the strip soldered on behind the wheels - increases the width, reduces the space between pickup and wheel rear for springing and getting contact pressure is an issue, I'll not use that again methinks and follow the advice posted elsewhere on the forum on small wire pickups 'down below' in the future). (some photos above of the wheels removed show the pickups quite clearly)

A mock up picture of the 14XX with a re-weheeled Bachmann A38 autocoach. The 14XX still needs all the chassis details applied (brake gear, sand boxes, battery box, vacuum and steam heat pipes) and the body needs a smokebox number, whistle shield and a lot of paint touch up. Couplings would be a good idea! The auto trailer ... well it needs a bit modification to the decoration. Even for plain maroon it's not quite right: the top edge of the maroon is in the wrong place, it is far too high being against the rain strip. On the real thing, the grey roof colour came down to the top of the doors. I will eventually end up lining it to be number 223, the Clevedon branch auto trailer on the last day of steam operation (I need to check that number, it is from memory, the Arlett book is out of reach at the moment!)

14XX with trailer.jpg

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Noel
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Noel » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:52 pm

peterbkloss wrote:battery box


Two for auto-fitted engines with ATC, which the 14XX were.
Regards
Noel

peterbkloss
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby peterbkloss » Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:33 pm

both between RH cab step and rear buffer beam, fixed together? thats how it appears in the photos in the MRJ article - I'd make them as one unit

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Noel
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Noel » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:45 pm

I think they are actually two separate standard boxes fitted separately to a sub-frame attached to the chassis, since they are equally close together on the 4575 conversions [where they are partially overlap the trailing wheel] and the auto-fitted panniers. I think Iain is wrong to refer to them as being ATC battery boxes; one must be, but I think the other [the original where there is only one box] is for the guard's bell circuit, which would have to be kept separate. To quote from the 1936 General Appendix General Instructions to be observed in connection with Auto-car Services "Guards must in all cases give the signal to the Driver to start by means of the electric bell communication provided for the purpose..."

Agree entirely about building as one unit. Soon after the article was written, Iain produced a detailing kit for the 14XX, now long gone, I believe; I have one if I can ever find it again, but if I do the relevant bits, which include a casting of the battery boxes, will probably go on a 4575...
Regards
Noel

DougN
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby DougN » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:00 am

Noel wrote:
Agree entirely about building as one unit. Soon after the article was written, Iain produced a detailing kit for the 14XX, now long gone, I believe; I have one if I can ever find it again, but if I do the relevant bits, which include a casting of the battery boxes, will probably go on a 4575...


Noel, did the detailing kit end up as part of the Mainly trains range that was taken over by Wizard models? That is where the majority of the Iain Rice bits ended up with the Riceworks loco kits at London Road models. It may be worth a check.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Enigma
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Enigma » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:25 am

DougN wrote:
Noel wrote:
Agree entirely about building as one unit. Soon after the article was written, Iain produced a detailing kit for the 14XX, now long gone, I believe; I have one if I can ever find it again, but if I do the relevant bits, which include a casting of the battery boxes, will probably go on a 4575...


Noel, did the detailing kit end up as part of the Mainly trains range that was taken over by Wizard models? That is where the majority of the Iain Rice bits ended up with the Riceworks loco kits at London Road models. It may be worth a check.


I believe it did and was listed by MT before they finished. I think I bought mine from there along with a load of IR's wagon etchings before it was known that Andrew Hartshorne had 'saved' them. Whether Andrew has re-issued the 14xx kit I can't say but a 'phone call/e-mail would probably answer.

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Noel
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Noel » Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:35 am

Or just look on the website https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/mt222/. It appears to be derived from Iain's kit [I've found mine], but his was all cast brass. Not all of the parts are compatible with the r-t-r chassis as it was designed for the contemporary Perseverance chassis.
Regards
Noel

Enigma
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Re: MRJ No. 1 challenge

Postby Enigma » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:36 pm

Noel wrote:Or just look on the website https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/mt222/


Never thought of that...........................


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