BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Martin Kelly
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BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:53 am

I recently started a prototype research thread about BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton mineral wagons here:

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8012

And I'm very grateful for all the replies I got.

So now it seems to make sense to start a workbench thread about my attempt to model this wagon. I'm going to be writing detailed posts on my blog, so I'll use this thread just to provide short progress updates with pictures and if you're interested in the gory details, you can click through to the full blog postings.

To get the ball rolling, I've been gathering together the raw materials I'll need for the build: parts from two Peco Parkside kits (PC03 and PC32), one of Rumney Models amazing etched brass underframe kits, castings for axlesboxes/springs and buffers, Exactoscale wheels and so on.

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You can read the full blog posting here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress ... modelling/

Hopefully this build will go well and people will enjoying following my progress.

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:45 am

After two years of successfully dodging it, Covid finally caught up with me over the weekend. So I decided a tiny amount of gentle modelling to get things moving would be good medicine. I've simply focused on preparation of one simple part. This will be familiar territory to most members but I've gone into some detail about basic techniques in my blog posting for the benefit of readers who may be new to handling plastic parts.

Image

The complete posting is here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/04/04/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-3-building-begins-at-last/

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:44 am

A little more progress - this time with one of the main bits of kit-bashing for the project: the creation of body sides with the correct number of side doors:

Image

Details of the butchery are in my latest blog posting here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/04/07/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-4-body-side-butchery/

It's scary how big photos expose all one's modelling shortcomings!

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Triode
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Triode » Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:25 pm

An interesting project Martin. I'll follow this with interest as a fellow wagon fanatic!

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am

Thank you Triode!

Here's the next instalment complete with a bit of jiggery pokery:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/04/11/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-5-the-door-end/

In which I describe preparation of the door end moulding including using a cheap home-made jig to aid drilling holes in the right places to take brass grab handles.

Image

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Sun May 01, 2022 2:58 pm

A little more progress and now the body work is complete (for now) with some additional fiddly details:

Image

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All the gory details are here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/05/01/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-6-body-building/

Next I will switch material from plastic to brass for a while...

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Wed May 04, 2022 3:27 pm

With the body more-or-less done, my attention has turned to the underframe for which I'm using one of the Rumney Models photo-etched brass kits. The first steps involve preparing one of the main parts - the chassis top plate:

Image

You can read how I went about it here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/05/03/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-7-starting-the-underframe/

Oh, before I forget, while I was doing this I dreamt up a couple of suggestions for Justin Newitt about how he could make his alrerady excellent etches even better. Justin, let me know if you happen to read this :-)

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Noel
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Noel » Wed May 04, 2022 3:59 pm

Martin Kelly wrote:Oh, before I forget, while I was doing this I dreamt up a couple of suggestions for Justin Newitt about how he could make his alrerady excellent etches even better. Justin, let me know if you happen to read this


Sending him either a PM or an e-mail might be better?
Regards
Noel

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:42 pm

And so we enter the world of soldering - something where I am extremely inexperienced and where I admit to having been slightly nervous of making a mess of things. However, with careful planning and attention to detail I've made some progress...

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And I quickly realised that I'd need some ingenuity to solder some tiny parts together without getting my fingers burnt!

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You can see the details of how I got on here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/06/18/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-8-axleguard-assembly/

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Steve Carter
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Steve Carter » Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:23 pm

For someone who feels they are inexperienced with soldering, you have made a very neat and tidy job.
Keep up the good work and posting Martin.
Thank you
Steve
Steve Carter

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Paul Willis
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:37 pm

Extremely neat soldering.

The full article on your blog that you link to is really comprehensive, and will be a great guide to anyone feeling slightly nervous at approaching soldering, or thinking of building a similar underframe kit.

I fear that you may be in danger of becoming one of those sources of reference on the internet that you refer to in your blog!

Enjoy it, and do keep posting how things go...

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:30 pm

Steve, Paul - thank you for your kind words.

I am a novice at soldering but I do have experience of other modelling techniques so I like to think that the planning and patience I learnt from them has come to my aid when wielding a soldering iron. That particular journey has only just begun, so we shall see. As for becoming a "source of reference" - well, I think talk of anything like that is premature until I've actually finished a few wagons and they've made it all the way to completion without disaster striking!

But your comments do encourage me to keep going.

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:00 pm

A quiet morning at home has given me the opportunity to finish off work on the axleguard assembly and test fit the wheels. The result looks like this:

Image

A fair amount of fiddly soldering work was involved which I've described in some detail in my latest blog posting:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/06/25/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-9-finishing-the-axleguard-assembly/

I'm looking forward to something slightly less demanding (famous last words) with the next couple of steps.

davebradwell
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby davebradwell » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:45 pm

Martin, you're doing a very neat job here and I appreciate there's no hurry but you seem to be missing a trick with the soldering that will speed up the process. For many jobs you can put the solder on the bit - you still have to judge the amount of course, but it saves heating the job up twice for your pre-tinning. So to fix the plates on the axleguards, just put flux on the area to be soldered and hold plate in place, perhaps with tweezers. Put solder on iron and apply to top edge and it will flow right through the joint if it is hot enough. Your spring plates could be done similarly. With the dry bit technique you have described, I'm wondering how the heat is transferred to the job as molten solder is required to act as the bridge.

Justin loves his 0.3 wire but it's worth reflecting on whether this is the best size to represent the nut rather than the bolt. Don't risk breaking out of the side of a part, though. I generally find that same size drills give a tight fit for our wire so normally use 0.05 larger - a 0.35 drill is much stronger than the 0.3 anyway. The joint you made between the wire and tierod is just like soldering electronic components and in such cases fine cored solder can be applied to the job for quick result and no pre-fluxing.

This all leads back to where you started - tinning the bit. Apart from your solder paste being a very expensive way to buy solder, is it the same grade as the 145 solder you are using for the job? If not you are getting a curious mix of metals on your iron with undefined properties. Just clag on some 145 before you switch off and all should be well. Keep the paste for something else - I bought some about 45 years ago and have never used it. I use different bits for different types of solder, or did until I knocked the box onto the floor.

Hope this is helpful but you're doing well anyway.

DaveB

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:29 am

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your kind words and suggestions. Much appreciated - especially from an etched-brass kit designer like yourself. In fact, I do have it on my list of future projects to use your BR standard brake van underframe kit with the Airfix/Dapol body.

My approach so far has been based on two factors; first, I really am an inexperienced solder-er and second, because of the way my life works, I typically only get short (approx 1 hour) windows of opportunity for modelling. Given that, I tend to concentrate each modelling session on doing something small and achievable and doing it it to the best of my ability.

That, in turn, has informed the soldering techniques I've used so far because I've focused on keeping the amount of solder to minimum in hope of avoiding lots of messy clean-up. Having said that, as I get more confident and experienced, I'm keen to try/learn more techniques and the method you describe of picking up a little solder on the iron's tip is something is something I'll move on to try. At present, I position the iron very close to (in contact with even) the small chips of solder I pre-position on the joint and that's how I get the heat transfer. I've already found that there are circumstances where that doesn't work - especially with fixing brass rod into little holes. It seems to be better to set up a jig, heat the joint and bring the end of the solder wire into contact with the joint for just long enough for some to melt and flash into the joint. I'm definitely still getting the hang of that!

Yeah, fractionally bigger holes are definitely the way to go. I probably over-did it a bit with 0.5mm holes for 0.3mm wire. And you're right, that extra 0.05mm certainly makes a difference to the strength of a drill bit so that was a learning point. And thanks for suggesting cored solder wire - I'll add that to the list of things to experiment with.

Finally, re solder paste - I only used it for initial tinning of the iron's bit, I haven't actually used it for soldering anything yet.

So, thanks again Dave and what's the best way of ordering a BR brake van underframe kit from you?

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Paul Willis
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:27 pm

Martin Kelly wrote:So, thanks again Dave and what's the best way of ordering a BR brake van underframe kit from you?


Hi Martin,

Dave is one of the traders who are Society members and we host on our website.

This is what you'll be looking for :-)

https://traders.scalefour.org/DaveBradwell/rolling-stock/

https://traders.scalefour.org/DaveBradwell/ordering/

Cheers
Paul Willis
Scalefour Publicity
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Daddyman
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Daddyman » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:15 pm

davebradwell wrote: This all leads back to where you started - tinning the bit. Apart from your solder paste being a very expensive way to buy solder, is it the same grade as the 145 solder you are using for the job? If not you are getting a curious mix of metals on your iron with undefined properties. Just clag on some 145 before you switch off and all should be well. Keep the paste for something else - I bought some about 45 years ago and have never used it. I use different bits for different types of solder, or did until I knocked the box onto the floor.

Hope this is helpful but you're doing well anyway.

DaveB

All very interesting, Dave. Are you saying what I said upthread, that tinning is a solution in search of a problem? - simply dipping the bit in solder is enough to tin it; there's no need for a special process, much less a special machine or chemical. Interesting point re the mix of metals - I've had the impression that the tinning coating that the Antex bits come with is interfering with my soldering.

davebradwell
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby davebradwell » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:11 pm

Ach! Carefully thought out reply just disappeared.

I don't think there are any rules about soldering, it seems as long as there's heat, solder and flux it works. Bits come just nickel plated, or at least mine do. Whatever solder you use should "wet" the bit and if it doesn't then bit needs cleaning and fluxing to restore this condition. I'm avoiding use of "tinning" to avoid ambiguity. I feel that bits become grotty more quickly when using 145 solder than good old 188 with real lead but that may be because I'm using the same iron temperature for both. The only gadget I use routinely is the wet sponge but that's out of favour these days and I believe the thing that looks like a ball of brass swarf is much preferred. In extreme cases I'll reach for anything - glass fibre brush, clean suade brush, etc.

The mixing of solders has come up on the forum previously and sounds a bad thing to do. I suggest keeping a stock of spare bits of various sizes to avoid this situation arising.

Martin, have you found how to order a Brake Van chassis on the website? The Contact facility seems to work these days in case of query.

DaveB

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Will L
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Will L » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:05 am

davebradwell wrote:...The mixing of solders has come up on the forum previously and sounds a bad thing to do. I suggest keeping a stock of spare bits of various sizes to avoid this situation arising.

While I sort of understand the chemistry of the mixed solder situations and this can in theory do unpredictable things to the melting point of your solder, as an inveterate user of assorted temperature solders to easy the assembly process I have never observed an unfortunate/unexpected event that has come about from changing the solder I'm using without changing the bit. That said I do clean the bit and if necessary re tin it with the new solder. I suspect here is too little solder in the tinning to material affect the percentage mix of metals, and hence the melting point, in the blob of solder I'm attempting to apply.

A few other related thoughts

I too find carrying the solder to the job on the bit is the best way to ensure that the required heat transfer takes place. What I do change the bit for is to give a size better matched it to the size of job I'm doing and hence the store of heat avaible to quickly do the job. If you need to dwell you need a bigger bit.

The ball of brass swarf is certainly a lot better than the wet sponge.

I thing using 145 solder with the iron running at the temperature need for standard solders does tend to cause the bit to get grotty quicker, but I'm still disinclined/to lazy to turn the temp. down unless I have a lot of 145 work to do.

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:35 am

davebradwell wrote:Martin, have you found how to order a Brake Van chassis on the website? The Contact facility seems to work these days in case of query.


Thanks Dave - I think so, yes. I've just PM'd you a couple of clarification questions.

garethevans1986
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby garethevans1986 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:34 pm

Martin,

Im also a fan of Justins underframe kits and have 11 on the go, with another 20odd sitting waiting to be started.

I started documenting some of the ways I work here, https://www.facebook.com/connahsquaywagonworks

The post from December 2020 shows the work I do before cutting any components out of the fret. Especially 0.3mm holes, which I drill with a 0.35mm drill bit as Dave mentioned above.

I have managed to get my 11 wagons a bit further but not done any soldering in a while but hoping to soon once Ive moved house.

Thanks
Gareth
Gareth O. Evans
IT Consultant/Director of Web46 IT Solutions
Connahs Quay Wagon Works

Diesel Crank

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:44 pm

After a hiaitus I've managed to make some more progress on this project - mostly I've been wrestling with the solebars and adding some teeny-weeny parts to them:

Image

You can read about how I only just had enough hands for this work and my thoughts on how to do it better in future here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress.com/2022/06/25/br-diagram-1-107-21-ton-mineral-wagon-part-10-time-for-solebars/

Next I shall gird my loins for assembling the brakegear!

Crepello
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Crepello » Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:00 am

Always a joy to see invisible soldering!

Martin Kelly
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Re: BR Diagram 1/107 21-ton Mineral Wagon

Postby Martin Kelly » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:56 pm

Ah, thank you though I think the photo is a little bit flattering - I don't think my efforts quite deserve the "invisible" accolade.


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