Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

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Triode
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Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:07 pm

I'm hopefully going to start construction of my first P4 layout soon. Below is an approximate track plan for what I'm envisioning so far:

shelf_3_v3 mod.png

It will consist of a single platform for DMUs, modelled as if part of a much larger station off-scene in the background - similar to Platforms 7 and 8 at Newcastle Central station.

Spaced off from the platform line will be a small freight or permanent way yard, possibly with a basic loco fueling point. The intention of the headshunt is to allow a train of wagons to partially appear under the footbridge, with the loco able to detach and run around its train.

The 'railway section' of the scene will be raised on an embankment or retaining wall, leaving room for some street scenes in the foreground.

I'd be grateful for anyone's thoughts on this setup from a prototype and constructability standpoint.

Cheers,

Liam

Stephan.wintner
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Stephan.wintner » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:17 am

I've just read Paul Bambrick's Backscenes book - quite interesting. Makes me think you've given space in the foreground (forescene?) And I see your notes about the backscene. You may wish to include more space there, make use of such techniques.

Stephan

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Noel
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Noel » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:43 am

Triode wrote:The intention of the headshunt is to allow a train of wagons to partially appear under the footbridge, with the loco able to detach and run around its train.


As drawn this would require handling the loco every time it shunts the yard, if taken literally. So do you need a crossover in the fiddle yard? You could have the loco leaving stock for the station pilot 03/08 to deal with, but most likely that would be the loco arriving with the train, as a local transfer from elsewhere, presumably?

With the foreground lower than the station, the footbridge will have a greater drop to ground level than to the platform, not as drawn. It also presents a possible problem with its reason for being there with direct access to the platforms, unless it was added in the relatively brief period when even some major stations were "open" [unlikely, I would think]; otherwise there would have to be ticket barriers at the bottom, and possibly a booking office, plus plenty of room for passengers to move around in without being crushed by the crowd. A footbridge without platform access, i.e. just crossing the station site, is probably easier to deal with in that sense, and can be narrower, since it doesn't have to cater for the same level of crowds.

Triode wrote:The 'railway section' of the scene will be raised on an embankment or retaining wall, leaving room for some street scenes in the foreground.


The slope of an embankment, depending on its height, will take up quite a lot of the foreground, so a wall is probably the more useful option in that scenario.
Regards
Noel

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:02 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

The footbridge having direct access to the platforms is something I hadn't considered. I think I'll make it without access as if it is only there to serve the main station behind. There could be archways through the rear wall for passengers to access the platform from those off-scene behind - again like Newcastle Central.

Regarding the drop for the footbridge to reach street level; I'm toying with the idea of the street scene being on a gradient sloping down away from the fiddle yard end. That way the footbridge access would be simpler. It does palce a restriction on the height of the raised raiwlay section though if the street is to have a reasonable gradient and not turn into Chimney Bank!

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:04 pm

Noel wrote:As drawn this would require handling the loco every time it shunts the yard, if taken literally. So do you need a crossover in the fiddle yard?


I forgot to mention this: the fiddle yard will have a traverser to switch between tracks. I also hope to equip it with cassettes so trains can be made up separately and added or removed.

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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby davebradwell » Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:26 pm

You might look at Ilkley which has a footpath over the station throat and which started at a lower street level and ended on higher ground behind. There is also the remains of the coal drops, originally accessed by a kick back from front siding - these would make it distinctly NER as well as adding some interesting stonework. Don't forget to leave a generous space between your front track and wall, although I expect someone will find a situation where there was little or none.

DaveB

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:26 pm

davebradwell wrote:You might look at Ilkley which has a footpath over the station throat and which started at a lower street level and ended on higher ground behind. There is also the remains of the coal drops, originally accessed by a kick back from front siding - these would make it distinctly NER as well as adding some interesting stonework. Don't forget to leave a generous space between your front track and wall, although I expect someone will find a situation where there was little or none.

DaveB

Thanks Dave for pointing me in the direction of Ilkley. I passed by while doing the Dales High Way a couple of years ago but never saw the station or the resident alien... The layout of the footbridge with the approach steps recessed into the retaining wall is exactly what I was after.

There will be a space between the track and the wall at least big enough for the standard ballast shoulder and cess.

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Paul Willis
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:30 pm

Hi Liam,

Thanks for starting what looks like another interesting layout topic.

Whilst the geographical area and the period are not close to my interests, I hope you'll forgive me making a couple of general observations:

Firstly, as you say that this will represent part of a much larger station such as Newcastle, I would suggest that a retaining wall/occupied arches/parapet is a much more probable boundary to the railway than an embankment. In a city centre property prices are high, even at the time that most railways were built. For example, the building of Liverpool Street station was very stop-start during the mid-19th-century, as the fledgling Great Eastern Railway struggled repeatedly to raise funds to buy the slum houses that it was necessary to demolish.

Secondly, given the period you are aiming to model, I feel that it would be very unlikely that there would be traditional freight facilities still existing. That's assuming that they would be that close to a passenger station of some size in the first place. A permanent way depot (to service quickly any repair needs in the immediate area of a large station), or a parcels depot would be much more likely. Or you could just stick with the plan of a small loco servicing point for the rapid turnaround of locomotives that have just worked trains into the station.

Anyway, the research and imagining of ideas is half the fun of modelling, so I'm sure you'll have plenty of suggestions and thoughts as well. Do keep us posted with what you decide.

Cheers,
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:24 pm

Thanks Paul.

A wall is definately sounding more likely than an embankment. Somehow I hadn't considered occupied arches even though there are quite a few in Newcastle and Gateshead. I think this is the route I'll end up going with as it will blend nicely into the street scene and making interiors for the arches will be good fun.

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John Donnelly
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby John Donnelly » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:06 pm

The west end approach to Newcastle Central was all on arches so ideal for you:

Image

They looked even better before the parcels depot next to the wall was replaced by another identikit hotel...

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John Donnelly
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby John Donnelly » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:10 pm

And a birds eye view with the old parcels depot in place:

Image

Before I settled on South Pelaw, I did draw up plans for a layout based on the west end bay platforms at Newcastle as they were before the Metro came along...

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:54 pm

Thanks John. That's ideal. I wonder if a T&W PTE Atlantean could squeeze under that bridge? It might make a nice approach to the bus station I'm planning to include on the layout.

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Noel
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Noel » Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:57 pm

Triode wrote:I wonder if a T&W PTE Atlantean could squeeze under that bridge?


Yes; the bridge has no height shown, which means it has the minimum 16ft 6ins or more over the carriageway. Atlanteans were 13ft 5ins high [4.1m] or thereabouts, so would still pass under a slightly lower bridge. Allowing for two way traffic an arch would have to be higher at the centre; a girder bridge with the same clearance would be lower overall. However, the implication is that the land on both sides of the railway is more or less at the same elevation, as it is at Newcastle Central, which removes any rational for a pedestrian overbridge which starts at street level...
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Noel

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Triode
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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Triode » Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:21 pm

Noel wrote: However, the implication is that the land on both sides of the railway is more or less at the same elevation, as it is at Newcastle Central, which removes any rational for a pedestrian overbridge which starts at street level...


Good point! I suppose the bridge/underpass could be road only and too narrow to accommodate a pavement for pedestrians. Perhaps it could be part of a one way system giving buses access to the station's bus concourse? For a large station this cod be quite a lot of traffic.

I feel like a town planner all of a sudden!

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Re: Unnamed Layout Workbench - 1970s - 1990s North Eastern Region

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:24 pm

Triode wrote:The intention of the headshunt is to allow a train of wagons to partially appear under the footbridge, with the loco able to detach and run around its train.


We used the same idea originally on Ravenscroft Sidings with the run round being via the traverser type fiddle yard. This worked very well but we later decided to add an extra board. The same idea is still used on Elcot Road.

Noel wrote:As drawn this would require handling the loco every time it shunts the yard,


But not if a traverser type fiddle yard or cassettes are used.

Triode wrote:I forgot to mention this: the fiddle yard will have a traverser to switch between tracks. I also hope to equip it with cassettes so trains can be made up separately and added or removed.


The Elcot Road traverser has a mix of fixed roads and cassettes - see https://www.scalefour.org/scalefournort ... ad-06.html The cassettes are only 600mm or so long and are used for two car units and this length is fairly easy to handle. Moving longer cassettes off the fiddle yard is only for the brave! I have seen what happens when a ling cassette is tipped and all the wagons roll on to the floor. :( We have separate loco cassettes on all of the layouts that go to exhibitions so for running round the loco runs into a cassette which is then lifted onto an empty road to run back onto the layout, or alternatively run onto the other end of the train ready to move off onto the layout when needed.

cassette.jpg


The picture shows a loco cassette and the way in which power is picked up from the traverser road and how it is aligned. Just some simple filing and some contact between the aluminium angle and the copper clad board. A bit of cleaning with a glass fibre brush occasionally keeps thing working

Terry Bendall


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