Watchmakers lathe

[Stephan.wintner]

Hello. I've just purchased a Wolf Jahn 10mm watchmakers lathe, a WW pattern long bed.

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Afraid I'm not aware of too many other places to turn for advice on such lathes, so I'm hoping some folks here have some helpful advice. I know my way around a lathe, and have read the SNews articles on lathe work, etc. but this sort is new to me.

I'm anticipating turning up various smaller fittings, oddball screws, and wheels for P87 and P4 (I dabble in both). I'm clearly needing a motor and controls, a four jaw chuck, and various other attachments. I'm located in the USA, but any advice on choosing same would be appreciated, as well as any general advice to get started, tips, tricks, things to be aware of, or general comment. (Haunting eBay will of course be ongoing.)

Cheers for any advice
Stephan

[Terry Bendall]

Stephen

Your lathe has most of the bits that you will need and other bits needed are no different to those needed for an engineering lathe. You have a compound slide which will take conventional cutting tools and also a tool rest to allow hand tuning tools to be used. I am not sure what the part is between the compound slide and the hand turning tool rest but it looks like that and the hand turning rest can be removed from the bed to allow the tailstock to slide up towards the chuck. If you get into hand turning you will need some tools for that but otherwise everything else is outlined in the articles I wrote for Scalefour News back in 2007 and 2008. Parts 1 and 2 in issue numbers 155 and 156 outline the bits and pieces needed.

Terry Bendall

[John Bateson]

I am no expert on the lathe and somebody will correct me probably but I note you have a full collet set so do you really need a 4-jaw chuck unless you need absolute accuracy - in which case you will need a dial guage.
See also the thread "Turning a chimney " and the notes from Jeremy Suter - very instructive.
John

[Jeremy Suter]

Hi Stephen

The lathe looks very nice. Has it arrived yet. Its a shame you are in the USA as you would be welcome to come here and have a look at what I do, I have several lathes here including 3 watch makers an 8mm Ime, 8mm Boley and a 6mm Lorch and 2 bigger lathes a Myford ML super 7 and a Hobbymat they all get used for different things.

Its a 10mm Collet lathe you bought and is best used as such. Although you have a 3 jaw chuck and want a 4 jaw they are cumbersome on the small machines but very useful to have for some jobs. What isn't in the picture is a tail stock chuck. Its a must have. When you get a motor which come up regularly on Ebay, try to get one with a foot pedal or fit one if you can this will give you a variable speed without using your hands. Small fittings are easily made on the machine, Although I do allot of work on the Hobbymat first in a chuck and then transfer to my Boley 8mm watchmakers with collets to finish especially anything that needs to be centred like wheels, chimneys and buffers shanks and anything with a hole in the centre that might need to be removed from the chuck and replacing before finishing.

Making small jigs for holding thin wire is a useful hint.

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I cannot see from the picture if you have an indexing wheel on the spindle although I think there will be one on it very useful for various jobs like putting holes in rims.

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The lathe is not good for turning small screws without thread cutting gears. They are available for watchmakers lathes but hard to get or very expensive. There is no die holding on that machine as it is, but you could make a your own die holder. I tend to do thread cut in the Myford using screw cutting gears but more often using a tailstock die holder for small lengths.

A milling attachment would also be a useful extra if you can find one. Mine is fitted with a diamond slitting disc at the moment in a collet but I could fit the chuck to it.

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Not sure if you have seen this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350
But any questions do ask me direct
The offer coming to my workshop and learning to use lathes is open to all members of the Society
When buying a Lathe ask yourself the question what do I want to make and can it be done on this machine.

[Terry Bendall]

The lathe is not good for turning small screws without thread cutting gears

Jeremy is of course quite correct although for most of us this is unlikely to be needed with the size of work needed in 4mm scale or even much larger such as the model engineering scales. Use of a tailstock die holder will do what is needed or even a die stock supported on the tailstock barrel. I would agree with Jeremy's comment about four jaw chucks. Given the range of collets that you have you should be able to hold most sizes of round bar needed so the accuracy is there. It is only when square bar had to be turned that a four jaw would be needed.

Terry Bendall

[Jeremy Suter]

Hi Stephen
I have thought of a couple of other things that are very useful for the watchmakers lathe. They are a set of Bell Collets these come in sets of 5 in .2mm graduation and can hold wheels while you work inside the rim or on the face like taking the back off RTR wheels.

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The other item is a quick change tool post. It will give you the ability to use more than one cutter at a time without changing the position of the tool post. They are available on Ebay at reasonable prices, not sure how good they are with an Aluminium centre. Mine is many years old and I could do with some more carriers which I will have to make myself.

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One other thing, Keep it clean!
If turning steel keep a Magnet handy its great for getting rid of the swarf which builds up and can get in the works as well as the work. In fact keep all machine clear of swarf it doesn't do the bearings any good and if it gets in the lead screws well there has been other posts on here about that. You can see in the top picture the brass dust on the bed and the pulleys from turning earlier this morning it was clean when I started and will be done again this afternoon.

[Winander]

They are a set of Bell Collets these come in sets of 5 in .2mm graduation and can hold wheels while you work inside the rim or on the face like taking the back off RTR wheels.

Hi Jeremy,

What clamps them up? Is it the normal spindle?

[Jeremy Suter]

They are a set of Bell Collets these come in sets of 5 in .2mm graduation and can hold wheels while you work inside the rim or on the face like taking the back off RTR wheels.

Hi Jeremy,

What clamps them up? Is it the normal spindle?

Like any other standard collet using a Drawbar at the back.

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[Stephan.wintner]

Cheers all, that's good info. Some thoughts and answers:

I've read Terry's articles in Snews and Jeremy's "Turning a chimney" thread, and everything else I could find here. (Thanks very much to all!) And cheers for the offer to visit - I hope to travel to Europe again someday soon, so I may take you up on that.

I do have a few immediate questions : Jeremy I see yours is also needs oil lubrication for the bearings. Which oil have you been using ? And, how often do you oil it? Thirdly, you suggest a foot pedal offering speed control. My background is engineering lathes - I've always selected a speed, held it constant and adjusted feed rate & depth of cut per pass. You are suggesting adjusting speed on the fly, rather than feed rate ?

Now some answers : No, it hasn't arrived. I'm currently in the phase of excitedly waiting for the postman, while trying to do my homework now. To be honest I threw in a bid and did not expect to win - other, similar lathes had gone for higher prices, or had fewer accessories. I'd expected to haunt eBay for the next several months before finding one.

I have some of the needed items (e.g. calipers), as well as a Proxxon MF70 mini-mill, but will need a host of items like a micrometer, dial indicator, and sundry other workshop items.

For years I've been struggling with which lathe to buy - the thought being that I needed a thread cutting lathe, which limits choices quite a bit. Sherline, Taig, Proxxon, Unimat seemed to fit my budget, but perhaps not the accuracy & rigidity sought, whereas a Cowells or Derbyshire would do but are a bit pricey. The Proxxon 150 doesn't cut threads, and the 230 only offers a limited set, for example. Adding CNC would also work, but push the price up. And the watchmakers lathes were out, because of the thread cutting gears being so rare. (I'd had a poor experience with a Sherline mill in the past.) I ran across a video of a watchmaker using his Wolf Jahn, and finally decided a die holder or tap holder will do for most of the small threads I expect to cut, since I can turn it by hand & feel what is happening. Something a bit larger, like a Proxxon PD400 or a Myford is a bit overkill for most of what I hope to make, and in price as well - maybe someday though. I'd like to be able to use a form tool for wheels, but with this I expect I'll have to single point cut them more or less to finish, and just dust the last thou or two using the form tool.

I'd expect to use collets 98% of the time, and a 4 jaw when I have some odd shape to turn, or to set up for an eccentric turn. Yes a set of bell collets seems like a good idea. Being a 10mm, rather than the more common 8mm, I'm afraid I'll have some difficulty sourcing them, but I'm still digging. I do have a wheel holding collet from Forhman (https://www.fohrmann.com/en/), and will need to see how to make it compatible with the lathe.

I'd also like a milling attachment, as it does have the dividing arrangement and so spokes could be drilled and milled. GG tools offers them : http://gg-tools.com/epages/4a53cb12-c34 ... cts/228022 and I speak German, so that's not an issue, but the price is steep. Another idea would be adapting a Sherline headstock, or perhaps I'll borrow the vertical column and head from my Proxxon MF70 mill. (Usovo offers a spindle upgrade for ER11 collets, which I have.)

Another link suggested he uses Sherline motors with his watchmakers lathes - right now that seems the best candidate. https://www.historictimekeepers.com/Not ... Lathes.htm

A quick change tool post is definitely on my list - I've found one on Ebay, I'm sure there are others to consider. Once I get a closer look, it'll be easier to choose.

I just turned up this link, which seems to be of interest to me : https://watchmaking.weebly.com/other-la ... ments.html

Anyway, thank you for the input so far, it's been good. I'll ty to post more & contribute when I have some more useful comments.
Stephan

[Terry Bendall]

Which oil have you been using

I use the same oil that I use to top up the oil in the car and anything similar would do.

you suggest a foot pedal offering speed control.

I have not tried a variable speed control but then I have not used a watchmaker's lathe. My engineering background suggests a constant speed.

but will need a host of items like a micrometer, dial indicator, and sundry other workshop items.

A micrometer is fairly essential but other things can wait until you need them which also spreads the cost. No idea about the US but in the UK model engineering exhibitions - when they happen will have stands selling secondhand tools which will normally be of good quality and you can see what you are buying. ebay and similar an an alternative of course.

whereas a Cowells or Derbyshire would do but are a bit pricey.

The Cowells lathes are good but are now very expensive new. They do come up secondhand although not cheap even then but in my view are worth going for.

Terry Bendall

[Jeremy Suter]

Cheers all, that's good info. Some thoughts and answers:



I do have a few immediate questions : Jeremy I see yours is also needs oil lubrication for the bearings. Which oil have you been using ? And, how often do you oil it? Thirdly, you suggest a foot pedal offering speed control. My background is engineering lathes - I've always selected a speed, held it constant and adjusted feed rate & depth of cut per pass. You are suggesting adjusting speed on the fly, rather than feed rate ?


Stephan

Hi Stephan
I use light spindle oil I bought some years ago and 3 in 1 sometimes which works just as well. You can tell when it needs oiling as the spin noise changes. I use that lathe most days for something and oil once a week.

The fly rather than the feed rate? That is a hard question to answer. Its all in the feel of the job These are small machines often used with hand cutting tools on a rest. We use them with a tool post for accuracy I have turned thousands of items over the last 40 years and made many errors Its a case of small cuts at a time at my own feed rate I don't turn the handle on the feed but twist the wheel. Its not like using a the big lathes.

[Enigma]

Thanks to a friend 'in the trade' I had a can of Class 40 gearbox (?) oil for a time and used it on my Cowells. With the Cowells lathe having a total loss system of oiling it eventually got used up but I think my current oil is some Castrol GTX or similar that I found in the garage.

Not seen 'bell collets' before. Are they available for use on a Cowells?

[nigelcliffe]

.....

Not seen 'bell collets' before. Are they available for use on a Cowells?

Depends "which Cowells".
If its the clock (CW) version, then yes, it takes 8mm clock/watchmaking style collets.
If its the more common engineering (ME) version, then you can't get an 8mm collet through the spindle. A 6mm would fit, but you'd need then to make a suitable adaptor to cause the collet to close at the front. (Or re-machine the entire lathe spindle....)

For the ME, I'd suggest something else which would be cheaper and more flexible: ER16 or ER25 collets, in a holder on the headstock of the lathe. Place a small blank of scrap material in the rear of the collet (eg. if using a 10mm collet, put a short piece of 10mm in the rear) to help the collet only collapse/grip at the front. ER collets have a range of typically 1mm.

ER16 or ER25 collet holder adaptors to fit the front of a Cowell are available from various sources, such as Arc-Eurotrade. Check which spindle screw type you have on a Cowell ME, the older coarser pitch (may have to make your own mounting plate), or the newer fine pitch. New being relative - its been "new" for at least 25 years.


I have ER collet holders for my Cowells ME lathe, they've been my "first choice" work holder on the machine for about 20 years. The three-jaw and four-jaw are second choice.


- Nigel

[Terry Bendall]

My Cowells lathe is the ME version and some years back I bought the collets and adaptor sold by Cowells. The collets are not cheap and I bought mine in two batches and now have 1.0mm to 6.5mm in 0.5mm steps. This range allows me to hold imperial sizes within that range as well. I will usually use a collet in preference to a three jaw chuck where possible.

Terry Bendall

[davebradwell]

For holding wheels you might be able to get soft jaws for your chuck, perhaps while you're waiting for bell/stepped collets to turn up. These would enable you to turn a recess in the jaws which will run true, although collets are much safer for small close-up work.

Suggest also a Verdict style of dial indicator with a lever as they're more versatile than a trad. dial gauge - they can probe in bores and the magnetic stand is far smaller. There's plenty of cheaper versions about.

DaveB

[Enigma]

Thanks for the replies. Mine is an ME and is around 40 years old now (don't time fly when you're enjoying yourself....). I have the Cowells collet holder and a couple of collets - including the 'blank' undrilled one which I still haven't got round to using. I must investigate the possibility of acquiring a selection of sizes as Terry has done. This might help considerably when needing to turn wheels etc. as I only have a 3 jaw chuck. Fine for well over 90% of the things I do but occasionally I would like the accuracy of a 4 jaw - or a suitable size collet!

[nigelcliffe]

My Cowells lathe is the ME version and some years back I bought the collets and adaptor sold by Cowells. The collets are not cheap and I bought mine in two batches and now have 1.0mm to 6.5mm in 0.5mm steps. This range allows me to hold imperial sizes within that range as well. I will usually use a collet in preference to a three jaw chuck where possible.

Terry Bendall

Those are, I think, ER collets. Which are much cheaper from Arc Eurotrade and the like. There will be differences in accuracy of different brands, but for most purposes it won't matter - and a cheap set for holding "any old rubbish" and a best set for "best" can help with accuracy.

Similarly, holders are available cheaper from other sources, and any holder will need its register plate finishing on its machine prior to fitting the chuck.

Thanks for the replies. Mine is an ME and is around 40 years old now (don't time fly when you're enjoying yourself....). I have the Cowells collet holder and a couple of collets - including the 'blank' undrilled one which I still haven't got round to using. I must investigate the possibility of acquiring a selection of sizes as Terry has done. This might help considerably when needing to turn wheels etc. as I only have a 3 jaw chuck. Fine for well over 90% of the things I do but occasionally I would like the accuracy of a 4 jaw - or a suitable size collet!

Not sure what the collet holder you describe might be. Unless its the 0MT arbors ?

Before I had collets, I regularly made a precision chuck for a job in the 3-jaw: Make a tube which would be a good fit over the job, mark carefully on the outside the position of no-1 jaw on the chuck on the tube (the jaws are numbered). Remove tube from chuck, and split up side with saw. Clean up any burrs. Replace in 3-jaw, aligning mark with no-1 jaw. Insert work, and tighten chuck to grip work.

And label the tube work diameter, so you don't have to make another on next time.



- Nigel

[Terry Bendall]

For holding wheels you might be able to get soft jaws for your chuck, perhaps while you're waiting for bell/stepped collets to turn up. These would enable you to turn a recess in the jaws which will run true, although collets are much safer for small close-up work.

This is a well known practice although I have not tried it. To be really accurate the jaws need to be locked in position by holding a ring of metal. such as a short length of tube on the outside step of the jaws, then use a boring bar to true up the inside of the jaws. Again, to be really accurate the jaws will only be really true on the setting at which they were bored.

Collets also hold the work more firmly than a chuck.

Terry Bendall

[davebradwell]

There is no doubt that collets are the better way, Terry, but the much neglected soft jaws are worth having "up your sleeve" for those challenging moments. I've been watching for years for suitable bell collets. Here, I'm going the other way - clamp jaws on a piece of bar and turn shallow recess in front (like on bell chuck) so that wheel can be gripped on flange and faced leaving a parallel component. Wobbly wheels might be held on the tread and re-drilled/bored after plugging. The recess in jaws should be an accurate fit when turned so the same bit of the chuck scroll is used each time.

For those with fixed collets, the 1/2" is a nice fit on a wagon wheel tread.

DaveB

[45609]

There is no doubt that collets are the better way, Terry, but the much neglected soft jaws are worth having "up your sleeve" for those challenging moments....

I'll definitely add a positive vote in favour of soft jaws. Invaluable when I was doing a set of 9F wheels a few years ago...

Bore tyre 3.jpg

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Something I haven't ever come across is soft jaws for anything smaller than an 80mm to 100mm chuck. In other words something more typical of the smallest model engineer's lathe rather than the watchmaker size lathes. Maybe someone will now tell me otherwise.

Cheers...Morgan

[Enigma]

"Collet Holder"

The item that the actual collet fits into which is then screwed onto the headstock thread. A knurled threaded 'collar' then tightens the collet onto the work rather like a drill chuck. No idea of the technical term for it!

[Terry Bendall]

The item that the actual collet fits into which is then screwed onto the headstock thread.

Generally known as a collet adaptor.

A knurled threaded 'collar' then tightens the collet onto the work rather like a drill chuck. No idea of the technical term for it!

Probably no special name but in this context "collar" is an accepted engineering term.

Terry Bendall

[davebradwell]

If you want a spare, it's called a collet nut - some are hex, others slotted.

DaveB