Alpha Mill

Outside the fence.
ralphrobertson
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby ralphrobertson » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:17 pm

I will use that design for the factory gates thanks Howard. It is too late now for what I have already done. Don't fancy drawing it up though!

Ralph

Dave Holt
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:51 pm

The Warwick (and other George Stotts mills of this style) was built in 1907 - somewhat earlier than the Art Nouveau movement, if I understand correctly.
Dave.

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:23 am

ralphrobertson wrote:I will use that design for the factory gates ...
Don't fancy drawing it up though!

More easily done in a drawing package than a CAD package perhaps?

Best Wishes,

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:42 am

Dave Holt wrote:The Warwick (and other George Stotts mills of this style) was built in 1907 - somewhat earlier than the Art Nouveau movement, if I understand correctly.
Dave.

A simplified summing up might be ... Art Nouveau spans roughly from 1890 through to the first world war ... 'fin de siecle' is a term often used alongside it.
Art Nouveau arguably revolves around the artists and designers based in France and Belgium during this period, - though is often also used generically as a continental catch all .... where Sessionist art and design with its focus in Vienna (which had links to Mackintosh and the Glasgow school) is also included - think Olbrich, Wagner and Klimt as examples.

Many countries had there own versions of 'fin de siecle' - Gaudi in Spain springs to mind or Saarinen in Finland.

The 'arts and crafts' predated all and arguably led the way ...starting with Morris and the pre-raphaelites and broadening into the Edwardian freestyle with a collective hub at the 'art workers guild'.

A fascinating subject. :thumb
Tim Lee

martin goodall
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby martin goodall » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am

I would suggest that it is not easy to pin labels on the work of individual architects.

Take for example, the work of Charles Rennie Mackintosh. Art Nouveau? Perhaps, and yet there are Japanese influences in his work. There were also Arts & Crafts influences in his work. And then there is also the element of Modernism. There were also the intriguing cross-influences between the work of Mackintosh and Charles Holden. Compare Holden's Central Library in Bristol with the extension to Mackintosh's Glasgow School of Art (now irretrievably lost, I fear). The similarities are striking.

So whatever influences may be detected in the decorative ironwork mentioned earlier, I would hesitate to pin a label on it.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:58 am

martin goodall wrote:So whatever influences may be detected in the decorative ironwork mentioned earlier, I would hesitate to pin a label on it.

True ;) though until you have read widely around the subject they can be helpful pegs to hang on to. ... endless are the arguments of academic categorisation. :thumb

..and of course there is always someone who knows more about the subject ... or an area of the subject than you.
Tim Lee

bevis
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby bevis » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:31 pm

Knowing next to nothing about this subject but having been watching this thread, looking forward to seeing t' mill on Saturday and an interest in Arts and Crafts I wandered onto the Art Workers' guild site and found a W Stott as an Honorary Brother in 1893.
http://www.artworkersguild.org/media/22 ... nt-day.pdf
Bevis

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:52 pm

bevis wrote:Knowing next to nothing about this subject but having been watching this thread, looking forward to seeing t' mill on Saturday and an interest in Arts and Crafts I wandered onto the Art Workers' guild site and found a W Stott as an Honorary Brother in 1893.
http://www.artworkersguild.org/media/22 ... nt-day.pdf
Bevis

Interesting ... I suspected as much. For me Howard's photo was typical of both the period and the output of the Guild members. Stott I was not familiar with having concentrated more on the central figures of the movement in my research, but I am certainly curious now to see more.
Tim Lee

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:41 pm

Le Corbusier wrote: I suspected as much. For me Howard's photo was typical of both the period and the output of the Guild members. Stott I was not familiar with having concentrated more on the central figures of the movement in my research, but I am certainly curious now to see more.


Interesting that such a humble place of work should have such pretensions to high art!

Alas, this is a different Stott - a pretty common name - but none of the family had the initial "W". I had a note back from my academic mate who very much doubts that any of the Oldham Stotts were involved in such organisations which were rather rarefied outfits whereas the mill "Architects" were pretty down to earth. Even "Sir Phillip Stott" was only knighted for being Lord Sheriff of Gloucestershire - long after he had moved away from the smoke and soot where he was just plain Sydney Stott. And he designed mills all over the world, some nice examples of which still stand in Holland, Germany and France - but no recognition for that...

Most likely then that George pinched this out of a book! But I still rather like it.

Best Wishes,

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:11 pm

ah well ... even as a pattern book offering its still rather fine to my eye. The Mill itself is also a rather fine if 'humble' building don't you think .. not quite the industrial estate tin shed of today's output. I find it telling that today we are converting yesterdays humble buildings into high end residential dwellings for the rich (warehouses as well as mills) - it does give pause for thought.

Interestingly William Stott was from Oldham and the son of a Mill owner but a painter rather than a craftsman or architect.
Tim Lee

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:12 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Interestingly William Stott was from Oldham and the son of a Mill owner but a painter rather than a craftsman or architect.


I think the father was Abraham Stott, cousin of AH Stott Snr. who was the uncle of George Stott......... so they ARE all related.
Abraham Stott's Osborne mills still stand - the No 1 mill was by A.H Stott senior, the No 2 by Sydney Stott... (kick one and they all limp...).
Anyone thinking that the Stotts did everything in Oldham should look at the Lees family...

Best Wishes,

ralphrobertson
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:58 am

Here is the family tree taken out of the book 'Stott and Sons, architects of the Lancashire Cotton Mill'. The book itself contains a lot in information about mills in general particularly their construction and proved to be an interesting read. There are lots of photos in there too and I learnt a lot from it.
img-181128085025.pdf
(79.11 KiB) Downloaded 46 times


Ralph

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:40 pm

Many thanks and well done for plugging my mate's book Ralph - it was to Roger that I put the question which Tim asked. I also sent him a photo of Alpha Mill without any background information, and he came back with ... "What a splendid model of a George Stott mill!". And he IS the REAL expert! He may just turn up to shake your hand over the weekend.

There is also info here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stott

which contains the reference to Abraham Stott, father of WIlliam Stott.

Roger also co-wrote this:- "Sidney Stott en de Engelse spinnerijen in Munsterland en Twente" downloadable here:-
https://www.lwl.org/wim-download/pdf/stott_inhalt_screen.pdf.
Don't be put off by the Dutch title as it is in German and English as well. Unfortunately in the download version the photos are not up to much.

Good luck for the show this weekend!

Best Wishes,

ralphrobertson
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:04 pm

That link contains a lot of interesting stuff Howard. To see the Lancashire style mill in both Germany and the Netherlands is certainly an eye opener and shows the impact that this part of England had on the world in general. Excellent stuff.

I continue to be amazed at the amount of material on this subject that you are able to put your hands on Howard and can only thank you for helping us along this journey allowing me to be able to produce something that is not only an accurate representation of a cotton mill but one that fits the space we have on the model perfectly. 9 months ago, to me, a cotton mill was just a big building that had a few floors and was BIG but now I know much more about it and feel a lot more confident at producing something that looks right.

Ralph

Dave Holt
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:21 pm

Ralph,
How did it go at the Manchester Exhibition? It would be nice to see a couple of photos of it Alpha Mill its final condition.
Dave.

ralphrobertson
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:14 pm

Hi Dave,

The mill went down very well at the exhibition thanks. Several people complimented me on the model and I managed to win 2 cups and a gold award which was very encouraging. Since then I haven't done anything with it but that doesn't mean I have done no modelling. I wanted to try out a different way of making a building so I could do the engine house as a structure with no internal bracing so I have been busy making a couple of rows of terrace houses.

I always seem to get the worst jobs, these terraces are on a slope and have been a bit of a pain to make. Back yards are needed on one of the rows and getting them level was a real pain in the proverbial but as you can see from these photos of the structure they have come out ok. They are much more advanced now but I don't have any more recent photos, will have to take some.

Stuck on the guttering at the moment, wish someone made some scale size open top gutters. Approached Alan Butler and whilst he says it is on his list of things to do there aren't any at the moment. Will try to see if my 3D printer will be able to produce something reasonable but at the moment I am thinking of using some brass tube with half of it milled away. If anyone has some ideas I would be happy to hear your views.

At the moment I am busy drawing up a small factory for one of our other group members to put together and after that I intend to get on to the engine house so I can try and get this mammoth building completed.

Ralph
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:35 pm

Ralph, Eileens do hollow half round brass. https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=189

It is 1mm so really is a tad big for 4mm domestic guttering (which would be 3" or 4") but it is fair to say you won't notice.



Mark
Mark Tatlow

Dave Holt
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:57 pm

Ralph,
Congratulations on your success with Alpha Mill. Fully deserved in my opinion. It's magnificent.
Regarding gutters on terraced houses in the Manchester area, from my childhood recollections, growing up in Oldham, gutters were invariably made of wood and were not rounded on the outside. This generally applied up to the 1950's (my parents bungalow, built in 1957/8 had wooden gutters, when new) although i think council houses had cast iron or asbestos cement gutters, which were half round.
I wonder if Howard B has any recollections of this?
Dave.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:09 pm

It is 1mm so really is a tad big for 4mm domestic guttering (which would be 3" or 4") but it is fair to say you won't notice.

Well, on my reckoning 1mm is 3" which I would see as a bit small, 4" would be better. Used to be that umbrella ribs were the favoured item for this.
But as Dave says wooden guttering would be more likely, Marley was still in the future! When I lived in Hyde we had wooden gutters on our house and most of those around us. My estimate from memory would be about 6" square with a 4" diameter half round machined in the top.
Regards

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:46 am

Dave Holt wrote:I wonder if Howard B has any recollections of this?
Dave.


When ah wer' a lad wi' mi Mam an' mi Dad... cast-iron gutters were non-existent on older buidings, and I would not be too surprised if there were not at least a few which have still not succummed to "modern" materials. I can also remember seeing wooden guttering lying around in the rubble when miles of these things were demolished. I would also suggest that a lot survived until PVC came along as cast iron was an expensive replacement.. Often, they were machined sections as Keith describes, but there were also built-up wooden box gutters and both stone and terracotta capping stones which incororated the gutters. Of course, remembering that and remembering the exact details are two different things, but I just had a quick look through my "Oldham Corporation Tramways" book and there is an amazing variety of types and styles - even on quite humble terraces.
Without wanting to give Ralph another job ... having a look through some some of the Local Authority building applications in the area would no doubt yield plenty of detail as this is the kind of thing which Local Councils were concerned about. I also seem to recall that the Stott Archive includes a couple of terraces by them. I think it would be a very worthwhile task as these things are very prominent and are usually not well done - even by the best modellers - as we all tend to work from assumption, not historical fact. Alpha Mill being of course a very exceptional exception.

Excellent work by the way Ralph - I really like the Garden Wall bond brickwork and stretcher bond chimneys.

Keep up the great work!

JFS
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby JFS » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:05 am

Fair to say this is a somewhat more grand terrace than yours Ralph, but it does show the kind of thing we are talking about. Even though windows etc have been "modernised", they have struggled with the rainwater ware!

Tearrace1.jpg


This one is from overseas (Burnley) but is a similar example

Tearrace2.jpg


A bit of an internet trawl might yield better examples.

Best Wishes,
Last edited by JFS on Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:12 am

It is said that you learn something new everyday - something that I have usually found to be true. I had no idea that wooden guttering was ever used so a new learning point for me. :)

Ralph has agreed to attend Scaleforum this year on September 28th/29th and to bring Alpha Mill along. The board on which it fits is too big to fit in a car but visitors will be able to see the mill in all its glory. We might be able to persuade ralph to bring these cottages as well.

Terry Bendall

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:21 am

A quick google on "wooden gutters" gets plenty of info and pictures.
eg. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzPg1-BYI8siawfVxb0P3JcHigWNvBm8n47piyJAzAvPsWdLLL
Regards

David Catton
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby David Catton » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:45 am

Just measured some offcuts of the wooden "launders" that used to adorn our house - 5.75" x 2.75" with a 3.125" wide semi-circular milled out channel. The back has a right-angle to the bottom while the front has a rounded corner to the bottom.

I got fed up with trying to keep the joints between sections water-tight so replaced them all with fibre-glass moulded guttering that was deliberately manufactured to give the appearance of wooden sections. This was to avoid any chance of problems with the local planning office as we live in a conservation area.

HTH,

David C

Dave Holt
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Re: Alpha Mill

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:48 am

A bit naughty, I suppose, but here are two fotos of terraced houses in Oldham, designed by Stott & Sons (taken from the book of the same name, Holden).
As the example posted by Grovenor shows, the shape of the guttering was usually a moulding rather than a plain rectangle. These shots also show the support arrangements. Hope this info helps the project.
Dave.

terraced houses.jpg
Granite St., Derker, Oldham


terraced houses 2.jpg
Flint St., Derker, Oldham


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