Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
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Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
I never really intended to go for the little Hatton's Barclay tank despite the Earl of Dudley's railway having quite a few of them. But one popped up for a reasonable sum on ebay with a best offer option. As it would be a nice to have I put in a cheeky offer and the seller accepted it!
Hattons have done several versions of this diminutive little tank but the main differences are the cylinder sizes. To make a somewhat complicated story very basic theres a 14 inch and a 16 inch version. My model is the 14 inch but the EoD had both types. The other main differences to the cylinders are the wheel size and wheelbase, the 14in version having 3'4" wheels set at 5'6" centres and the 16in version having 3'8.5" wheels at 6' centres. The tank on the 16' version was also taller. I don't know if Hattons have accounted for the wheel sizes and wheelbase in their models but the smaller loco checks out with the known dimensions. One little feature I liked was the pick up arrangement. The bottom keeper plate has traditional wipers bearing on the backs of the wheels but the chassis has sprung plungers that bear on the keeper plate. This means the keeper plate can be removed completely with out any wires to faff about with. A neat little bit of thinking.
Converting to p4
First up, no one does the right wheels. So fancying a bit of a challenge I brought a cheap as chips lathe from Amazon and had a go at turning the RTR wheels down. I had in my wheel stash some old Sharman wheels of the right diameter and salvaged the tyres. I haven't done anything with a lathe since I was in school and I have to admit I did quite enjoy doing this. Ive always found those 'someone makes something from rubbish' DIY engineering videos that pop up in youtube strangely therapeutic. Im just worried now that I want a much better lathe and I'm going to get sucked into turning things next! The axles are a little odd being 2mm but stepped down at the ends for the wheels. A couple of 2mm axles were turned down to match and the wheel sets reassembled with suitable washers. I didn't secure the drive gear in place at this point.
The clearance between the top of the tyre and the metal chassis was very tight so some time was spent shunting the loco around (without rods and powered by a class 20) to see if it would short and cause any problems. No problems showed themselves.
Despite the rods being too thin (as seems to be the way with RTR steam locos) things wouldn't fit now the wheels were p4. Handily the cylinders are a separate moulding so they were removed, cut in half and refitted with a 20 thou plasticard spacer either side. The front coupling rod was mounted with the crank pin backwards so that the screw is on the outside of the wheel. This enables the screw head to be flush with the face of the coupling rod. The rear of the coupling rod and the connecting rod were opened up so that a Gibson crank pin nut could be use the wrong way round in fit inside the rods. Both rods were secured with their own nut and the reason for his is thats how they looked on my prototype pictures. More shunting test were carried out and once happy the finals drive gear was secured and the model tested on its own.
DCC
The model accepts a 6 pin decoder and you could simply bung one in and off you go. However with a 0-4-0 a little extra help is never going to hurt. My usual small model arrangement of a Zimo mx633 decoder and a TCS KA1 was not going to fit. I'd seen mention of swapping the motor for something smaller so a little 12volt motor was ordered from Nigel lawton along with an adapter for the worm. For some degree of stay alive 4 Zimo Tantalum capacitors were wired in parallel and everything shoe horned back into the tiny body. It doesn't give the 'pick it up and it keeps going for 10 seconds+' effect that a TCS Kam 4 does but it seems to make a noticeable enough difference to make it worth doing.
Detailing the chassis.
As can be seen in the previous picture there's quite a noticeable gap between the chassis and the wheels. Of the limited detail on the chassis a lot of it pugs in as separate bits so its a relatively easy job to make some new overlays from 60thou plasticard and plug the bits back in.
One thing I would advise though is to cut away the original chassis at the points shown (where the NEM coupling pocket is) as you will end up with very chunky and visible frames at the ends of the loco. Might be better to do 20 thou overlays and space them out so they are nice and thin. The arrangement of the brake shoes on the EoD locos seems the opposite way round to the way Hattons had modelled them with the shoes in front of the wheels not behind them and the linkages not visible at all. so these were rearranged. You can see the front crank pin screw in this picture. I also changed the front step to match prototype photos.
The Body
The boiler handrails are separate as supplied but they are plastic, a little wibbly and in a vulnerable place so I swapped them for brass. The weird shaped front handrail was copied from photos. Buffers are Roco HO ones reduced in size. The EoD locos seemed to be set up for lower clearance than the version Hattons supplied so the chimney was reduced in height as were the safety valves while the whistle was relocated from the cab roof to the cab front. The original cab front windows were filled then re-drilled lower down. Some of the EoD locos had a big coupling on the front under the bufferbeam. I suspect this was some sort of auto coupling for when they were working inside the Round Oak steel works. It seems that when some of them lost this they retained the mounting plates which conveniently meant I didn't have to cut the chassis away as mentioned earlier.
The rear of the cab. EoD locos had 2 types of cab, an enclosed one with 3 windows and this open version. The enclosed one is available from Planet industrials as a detailing kit. Given the layout is set in the rain my mini driver and fireman must be cussing me for not going for that one! My first thought was to scratchbuild a new rear cab from brass for strength but I decided to cut away the RTR one first to see if that would work instead, as can be seen it did. The handbrake is the supplied RTR one
http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html
https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/products/pil-002c
Hattons have done several versions of this diminutive little tank but the main differences are the cylinder sizes. To make a somewhat complicated story very basic theres a 14 inch and a 16 inch version. My model is the 14 inch but the EoD had both types. The other main differences to the cylinders are the wheel size and wheelbase, the 14in version having 3'4" wheels set at 5'6" centres and the 16in version having 3'8.5" wheels at 6' centres. The tank on the 16' version was also taller. I don't know if Hattons have accounted for the wheel sizes and wheelbase in their models but the smaller loco checks out with the known dimensions. One little feature I liked was the pick up arrangement. The bottom keeper plate has traditional wipers bearing on the backs of the wheels but the chassis has sprung plungers that bear on the keeper plate. This means the keeper plate can be removed completely with out any wires to faff about with. A neat little bit of thinking.
Converting to p4
First up, no one does the right wheels. So fancying a bit of a challenge I brought a cheap as chips lathe from Amazon and had a go at turning the RTR wheels down. I had in my wheel stash some old Sharman wheels of the right diameter and salvaged the tyres. I haven't done anything with a lathe since I was in school and I have to admit I did quite enjoy doing this. Ive always found those 'someone makes something from rubbish' DIY engineering videos that pop up in youtube strangely therapeutic. Im just worried now that I want a much better lathe and I'm going to get sucked into turning things next! The axles are a little odd being 2mm but stepped down at the ends for the wheels. A couple of 2mm axles were turned down to match and the wheel sets reassembled with suitable washers. I didn't secure the drive gear in place at this point.
The clearance between the top of the tyre and the metal chassis was very tight so some time was spent shunting the loco around (without rods and powered by a class 20) to see if it would short and cause any problems. No problems showed themselves.
Despite the rods being too thin (as seems to be the way with RTR steam locos) things wouldn't fit now the wheels were p4. Handily the cylinders are a separate moulding so they were removed, cut in half and refitted with a 20 thou plasticard spacer either side. The front coupling rod was mounted with the crank pin backwards so that the screw is on the outside of the wheel. This enables the screw head to be flush with the face of the coupling rod. The rear of the coupling rod and the connecting rod were opened up so that a Gibson crank pin nut could be use the wrong way round in fit inside the rods. Both rods were secured with their own nut and the reason for his is thats how they looked on my prototype pictures. More shunting test were carried out and once happy the finals drive gear was secured and the model tested on its own.
DCC
The model accepts a 6 pin decoder and you could simply bung one in and off you go. However with a 0-4-0 a little extra help is never going to hurt. My usual small model arrangement of a Zimo mx633 decoder and a TCS KA1 was not going to fit. I'd seen mention of swapping the motor for something smaller so a little 12volt motor was ordered from Nigel lawton along with an adapter for the worm. For some degree of stay alive 4 Zimo Tantalum capacitors were wired in parallel and everything shoe horned back into the tiny body. It doesn't give the 'pick it up and it keeps going for 10 seconds+' effect that a TCS Kam 4 does but it seems to make a noticeable enough difference to make it worth doing.
Detailing the chassis.
As can be seen in the previous picture there's quite a noticeable gap between the chassis and the wheels. Of the limited detail on the chassis a lot of it pugs in as separate bits so its a relatively easy job to make some new overlays from 60thou plasticard and plug the bits back in.
One thing I would advise though is to cut away the original chassis at the points shown (where the NEM coupling pocket is) as you will end up with very chunky and visible frames at the ends of the loco. Might be better to do 20 thou overlays and space them out so they are nice and thin. The arrangement of the brake shoes on the EoD locos seems the opposite way round to the way Hattons had modelled them with the shoes in front of the wheels not behind them and the linkages not visible at all. so these were rearranged. You can see the front crank pin screw in this picture. I also changed the front step to match prototype photos.
The Body
The boiler handrails are separate as supplied but they are plastic, a little wibbly and in a vulnerable place so I swapped them for brass. The weird shaped front handrail was copied from photos. Buffers are Roco HO ones reduced in size. The EoD locos seemed to be set up for lower clearance than the version Hattons supplied so the chimney was reduced in height as were the safety valves while the whistle was relocated from the cab roof to the cab front. The original cab front windows were filled then re-drilled lower down. Some of the EoD locos had a big coupling on the front under the bufferbeam. I suspect this was some sort of auto coupling for when they were working inside the Round Oak steel works. It seems that when some of them lost this they retained the mounting plates which conveniently meant I didn't have to cut the chassis away as mentioned earlier.
The rear of the cab. EoD locos had 2 types of cab, an enclosed one with 3 windows and this open version. The enclosed one is available from Planet industrials as a detailing kit. Given the layout is set in the rain my mini driver and fireman must be cussing me for not going for that one! My first thought was to scratchbuild a new rear cab from brass for strength but I decided to cut away the RTR one first to see if that would work instead, as can be seen it did. The handbrake is the supplied RTR one
http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html
https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/products/pil-002c
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Interesting to see your P4 approach.
I've had an EM one over my desk to do the DCC install: I fitted a Zimo MX648/649 sound decoder (would have to look up which it was - it just fits cross-ways, right on the limit, with the shrink insulation cut-back), small "sugar cube" speaker and a stay-alive module from Digitrains (Lais branded £15) inside it. That will give similar-ish no-power performance to the TCS KA units. Required cutting away some of the internal plastic of the smokebox mouldings (which are quite chunky). I kept the original motor.
- Nigel
I've had an EM one over my desk to do the DCC install: I fitted a Zimo MX648/649 sound decoder (would have to look up which it was - it just fits cross-ways, right on the limit, with the shrink insulation cut-back), small "sugar cube" speaker and a stay-alive module from Digitrains (Lais branded £15) inside it. That will give similar-ish no-power performance to the TCS KA units. Required cutting away some of the internal plastic of the smokebox mouldings (which are quite chunky). I kept the original motor.
- Nigel
Nigel Cliffe - Blog of various mostly model making topics
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
jim s-w wrote: Hattons have done several versions of this diminutive little tank but the main differences are the cylinder sizes. To make a somewhat complicated story very basic theres a 14 inch and a 16 inch version. My model is the 14 inch but the EoD had both types. The other main differences to the cylinders are the wheel size and wheelbase, the 14in version having 3'4" wheels set at 5'6" centres and the 16in version having 3'8.5" wheels at 6' centres. The tank on the 16' version was also taller. I don't know if Hattons have accounted for the wheel sizes and wheelbase in their models but the smaller loco checks out with the known dimensions. One little feature I liked was the pick up arrangement. The bottom keeper plate has traditional wipers bearing on the backs of the wheels but the chassis has sprung plungers that bear on the keeper plate. This means the keeper plate can be removed completely with out any wires to faff about with. A neat little bit of thinking.
If I remember correctly, Hattons only tooled a chassis up for the 14", meaning that the model of the 16" is a compromise in many areas. I seem to recall apart from wheelbase (and maybe wheel size) issues, the body and the tank are both 9" too short. I think Chris from HL is planning a chassis, but because of Hattons' shortcuts in 16", he can only do a 14".
The curve on the tank from the vertical section over to the top looks too sharp on all the models.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
nigelcliffe wrote: a stay-alive module from Digitrains (Lais branded £15) inside it. That will give similar-ish no-power performance to the TCS KA units.
Thanks Nigel, I’ll check one of those out
Jim
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Daddyman wrote:If I remember correctly, Hattons only tooled a chassis up for the 14", meaning that the model of the 16" is a compromise in many areas. I seem to recall apart from wheelbase (and maybe wheel size) issues, the body and the tank are both 9" too short.
Bit of a mess then?
Daddyman wrote:I think Chris from HL is planning a chassis, but because of Hattons' shortcuts in 16", he can only do a 14".
If he does I’d likely replace this one but still leaves the problem that no one does wheels for it.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
jim s-w wrote: Bit of a mess then?
Oh, aye...
Re wheels, didn't he persuade Gibson to do the right ones for the 0-6-0 Barclay? Might have the same luck with this...
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
jim s-w wrote:Daddyman wrote:I think Chris from HL is planning a chassis, but because of Hattons' shortcuts in 16", he can only do a 14".
If he does I’d likely replace this one but still leaves the problem that no one does wheels for it.
3D printed centres ? I think David "Cheeseplant" was offering some via his resin printer, and had certainly reported the type of resin to use. Then the problem is just the tyres for the correct diameter which are probably available.
- Nigel
Nigel Cliffe - Blog of various mostly model making topics
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
nigelcliffe wrote: I think David "Cheeseplant" was offering some via his resin printer, and had certainly reported the type of resin to use.
Yes, I wasn't sure I'd remembered well.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Jim, very nice. Re the cab back, lots of industrial locos had removable backs to the cab, take the back of for the summer, and put it back for the winter! One of the Lilleshall Company Pecketts had such an arrangement. I understand this was common arrangement for Industrial tank engines.
David
David
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Very nice little engine, Jim. I'd be interested to know which lathe you purchased from Amazon?
Philip
Philip
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
One change since the last post on this little tank is I've replaced the tantalum capacitors with a Lais stay alive unit on the recommendation of Nigel. With this little motor I've now got about 4-5 seconds of off the juice running which is a big improvement.
The model has been finished and lined with Fox transfers lining. I just need the number plate and name which is on order with Narrow Planet. I decided to take a quick shot of it for prosperity before i covered it all in goo!
And post goo!
The crew are, the almost customary now, Modelu Figures
I used to think my Deeley was tiny!
The model has been finished and lined with Fox transfers lining. I just need the number plate and name which is on order with Narrow Planet. I decided to take a quick shot of it for prosperity before i covered it all in goo!
And post goo!
The crew are, the almost customary now, Modelu Figures
I used to think my Deeley was tiny!
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Philip Hall wrote:Very nice little engine, Jim. I'd be interested to know which lathe you purchased from Amazon?
Philip
Appologies for missing this. I got one of these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Queiting-Multi-metal-Drilling-Woodworking-Processing/dp/B08JGL55G5/ref=asc_df_B08JGL55G5/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=463108587031&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14758072557585809257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006564&hvtargid=pla-965323062227&psc=1
Super basic but then so was what I was doing!
Last edited by jim s-w on Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Thanks Jim but that link shows ‘cannot find that page’. I’m using an iPad now but will check on the PC later.
Philip
Philip
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
A useful 'reference for later' post Jim as at some point I'll probably pick one of these up I expect, though knowing about the problems with the 16" one has informed my decisions somewhat at least, which is helpful.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Try it now.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Thanks again, Jim, interesting little tool. As ever, if it does the job… But you will, of course, be tempted by a better (much more expensive!) machine. I know, I frequently am, but have so far resisted!
The engine looks even better in the later pictures.
Philip
The engine looks even better in the later pictures.
Philip
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
jim s-w wrote:Philip Hall wrote:Very nice little engine, Jim. I'd be interested to know which lathe you purchased from Amazon?
Philip
Appologies for missing this. I got one of these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Queiting-Multi-metal-Drilling-Woodworking-Processing/dp/B08JGL55G5/ref=asc_df_B08JGL55G5/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=463108587031&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14758072557585809257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006564&hvtargid=pla-965323062227&psc=1
Super basic but then so was what I was doing!
Interesting. Unavailable, though.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Hattons Barclay 0-4-0 tank
Horsetan wrote:jim s-w wrote:Philip Hall wrote:Very nice little engine, Jim. I'd be interested to know which lathe you purchased from Amazon?
Philip
Appologies for missing this. I got one of these
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Queiting-Multi-metal-Drilling-Woodworking-Processing/dp/B08JGL55G5/ref=asc_df_B08JGL55G5/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=463108587031&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14758072557585809257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006564&hvtargid=pla-965323062227&psc=1
Super basic but then so was what I was doing!
Interesting. Unavailable, though.
On the Amazon link, when I followed it, yes the item is unavailable. But at the top of the page were three other identical items, at prices from below £40 to £100.
- Nigel
Nigel Cliffe - Blog of various mostly model making topics
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