New radio control starter kits

martin goodall
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New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:49 pm

I have been convinced for a long time that locos powered by onboard batteries under radio-control represent the way forward for the future, but until now it seemed to me that the technology had not quite got there. With the launch of the starter kit at Scaleforum, it seems that a breakthrough has been achieved at last.

Even at the correct price of £130 (£115 at Scaleforum) plus £50 for each extra loco added to the system (£45 at Scaleforum), and not as incorrectly stated in Scalefour News 229, this still seems worth trying.

The article in Scalefour News gives a very helpful explanation of the kits on offer, but there are a few points that might well be FAQs.

(1) Am I right in assuming that, as supplied in the starter kit, the receiver will have been pre-programmed and will not require programming (or re-programming) by the user? Am I also right in assuming that all connections to the receiver (chip) have already been wired up?

(2) Does the programming of the receiver as supplied allow for the loco to make a slow smooth start as the control knob of the transmitter is turned up (without having to be re-programmed)?

(3) Where there is more than one loco on the layout, how is each loco selected to the transmitter while the others remain at rest? I assume that the small knob marked “Selecta” at the top left-hand corner of the transmitter is the means by which each loco is selected by the transmitter. Is this right? [I don’t understand what is meant by the sentence “Multiple receivers can be bound to each slot.”]

(4) I am not entirely clear as to the purpose of the micro-switch on the loco. It is stated “to switch on power from the battery to the receiver”. Is this simply to save battery power when the loco is out of use for an extended period, or does it operate to switch on the battery when that loco is selected by the transmitter? How is the micro-switch actually operated? Is the micro-switch operated remotely (by the transmitter), or does the switch require any manual intervention? (If the latter, how and when?)

(5) What is the precise mechanism for re-charging the battery? How is power connected to the battery for re-charging? The 2.5mm x 0.7mm dc socket is designed to allow the battery to be charged from a USB power source, but I don’t see the USB plug on one end of it, unless it is the top plug at upper right on page 23, seen sideways on.

(6) Finally, if one purchases additional Loco Starter Kits, how are their receivers differentiated from the receiver in the main Starter Kit and from each other? They presumably have different ‘addresses’, but how does the user know what these are?

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JackBlack
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby JackBlack » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:52 pm

Hi Martin,

I'm going to answer your questions from my point of view, and I'm sure Ted will be along shortly and give you a completely different set of answers!

We've put this kit together because it's simple to set up and use, and it's basically the exact system (more or less) that I've been using for the last couple of years. As I mentioned in the article, I'm not Ted! I can't do the stuff he can do with electronics and when I'm building a loco I just want the r/c part to go together as quickly and easily as the standard High Level type parts I use motor/gearbox, hornblocks etc. Obviously it doesn't fit everything, but it covers most types of locos (there's an article coming up where I install this into a 0-4-4 tank engine with very little space and I had to make some changes there).

There will be instructions with the kit that answer some of your questions, and we'll be at Scaleforum to help anyone, but honestly it's really as simple as it sounds.

martin goodall wrote:(1) Am I right in assuming that, as supplied in the starter kit, the receiver will have been pre-programmed and will not require programming (or re-programming) by the user? Am I also right in assuming that all connections to the receiver (chip) have already been wired up?


That is correct. These are standard items from Andy Rutter at Micron Radio Control and are set up specifically for model trains. All wires have polarised connectors, you follow the instructions and connect everything together, it takes about 5 minutes from opening the box to having a running motor.

martin goodall wrote:(2) Does the programming of the receiver as supplied allow for the loco to make a slow smooth start as the control knob of the transmitter is turned up (without having to be re-programmed)?


Ted will probably weigh in here because you can reprogram these transmitters for different types of running, however as I've already mentioned, I like things simple, I always use mine out of the packet, no alterations and they run really smoothly. There's an Inertia knob on the controller that gives you a slow incremental start and stop.

martin goodall wrote:(3) Where there is more than one loco on the layout, how is each loco selected to the transmitter while the others remain at rest? I assume that the small knob marked “Selecta” at the top left-hand corner of the transmitter is the means by which each loco is selected by the transmitter. Is this right? [I don’t understand what is meant by the sentence “Multiple receivers can be bound to each slot.”]


So the controller comes with a selecta knob with 12 slots. You bind a receiver to each slot. There are instructions for binding, it's really simple. To control a specific loco you just turn the knob to the correct slot (it helps if you have some sort of labelling on the back of the controller to identify which loco is bound to each slot!). The multiple receivers thing, you can bind multiple receivers to each slot. So lets say you have locos one to twelve bound to the twelve slots. You can bind loco thirteen to slot one and as long as loco one is switched off you can control loco thirteen. If both one and thirteen are switched on then both will respond to the controller. To be honest at this point I would just buy another controller, but it's possible to do.

martin goodall wrote:(4) I am not entirely clear as to the purpose of the micro-switch on the loco. It is stated “to switch on power from the battery to the receiver”. Is this simply to save battery power when the loco is out of use for an extended period, or does it operate to switch on the battery when that loco is selected by the transmitter? How is the micro-switch actually operated? Is the micro-switch operated remotely (by the transmitter), or does the switch require any manual intervention? (If the latter, how and when?)


This is basically the way I set my locos up. I have a switch concealed somewhere, and I switch the loco on when I want to run it. And then I switch it off after. It's a mechanical switch and I use tweezers. The switch isolates the batter from the receiver. You can still charge the battery when switched off. However, you don't have to have a switch. Ted's whole concept of the 5V model railway is that there are no switches and charging is from the track. When you deselect a loco the battery can run down until it shuts off, and then to bring it back to life you just give it some power via the track and then the transmitter will pick it up again.

martin goodall wrote:(5) What is the precise mechanism for re-charging the battery? How is power connected to the battery for re-charging? The 2.5mm x 0.7mm dc socket is designed to allow the battery to be charged from a USB power source, but I don’t see the USB plug on one end of it, unless it is the top plug at upper right on page 23, seen sideways on.


Again, this is the way I do things. I have a charging socket concealed somewhere on the loco, usually inbetween the frames. It's connected to the connection hub. There's a charging cable included with the kit, I put the loco in a cradle overnight and charge it (the battery has a safety cut-off) using a normal USB charger. I use batteries with fairly high capacity, so one full charge should last a few hours. At Scaleforum 2019 in the 517 I had a 750mAh battery and that was running constantly all day long on one charge. The kit includes a 500mAh battery, ideal for small tank locos, but you can put much bigger ones in tenders. We will have some alternative batteries with us at the show.

There are obviously lots of ways you can do the charging though. The way I put the starter kits together they're aimed really at people building locos from kits. However if you're converting ready-to-run there's absoutely no reason not to dispense with the socket and connect those leads to the pick-ups and charge from a powered section of track. Things can get complicated here though because you need to think about correct polarity, protection from too much current etc. It's very easy to fry the receiver. Ted has lots of ideas on this kind of stuff, and will probably talk about using smaller batteries with frequent charging from the track...

martin goodall wrote:(6) Finally, if one purchases additional Loco Starter Kits, how are their receivers differentiated from the receiver in the main Starter Kit and from each other? They presumably have different ‘addresses’, but how does the user know what these are?


You just bind the receiver to a different slot. It really is very simple.

I should like to point out, the kit is to get you started and to show how easy it can be. After that I think people will be able to see the possibilities and look at ways of putting r/c together to suit their own requirements.

I hope that helps! Nick


Nick Allport
CLAG


martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:19 pm

Thanks, Nick. That's very helpful.

Like you, I believe in the K.I.S.S principle. So I shall be more than happy to stick to the 'as supplied' format, at least for some time to come.

I look forward to any comments here from Ted, and if there are any points about which I am still unclear, I'll come and discuss them with you and Ted on your demo stand at Scaleforum.

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zebedeesknees
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby zebedeesknees » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:22 pm

martin goodall wrote:The article in Scalefour News gives a very helpful explanation of the kits on offer, but there are a few points that might well be FAQs.

Indeed, and there will probably be more. My thanks Martin for getting the ball rolling!

(1) Am I right in assuming that, as supplied in the starter kit, the receiver will have been pre-programmed and will not require programming (or re-programming) by the user? Am I also right in assuming that all connections to the receiver (chip) have already been wired up?


Yes but...

(2) Does the programming of the receiver as supplied allow for the loco to make a slow smooth start as the control knob of the transmitter is turned up (without having to be re-programmed)?


Yes, with the same but:- As they come, the receiver has never been bound to the transmitter. It should have been tested with one by the manufacturer, but that will be of no consequence once that transmitter is out of range. The receivers have their basic programme (firmware?) installed plus default settings of the variables which can be altered by a user with the transmitter or a dedicated programmer, available separately from Micron. Both require some serious concentration!

(3) Where there is more than one loco on the layout, how is each loco selected to the transmitter while the others remain at rest? I assume that the small knob marked “Selecta” at the top left-hand corner of the transmitter is the means by which each loco is selected by the transmitter. Is this right? [I don’t understand what is meant by the sentence “Multiple receivers can be bound to each slot.”]


A complete answer to this question may get a bit long, but it is not as complicated as it might seem. Forget the multiple receivers line for now.
Each receiver has an LED on board which tells the user it's current state. As it comes, when powered up for the first time, the LED will flash at a rate a little slower than a car indicator, for about 0.2 secs every second. This indicates that it is powered, but hasn't found a transmitter that it recognises that is also powered. This flash rate will continue for about 20 seconds, giving one time to find the transmitter and get ready for the binding. After that 20 secs, the LED will begin to flash rapidly, indicating that it is ready to bind.

Within the 20 secs, one of the 12 postitions on the selection switch should be selected and noted, (say Sel.1) but the transmitter must not be switched on yet. The button marked 'Bind' can be held down ready for when the receiver starts rapid flashing, then the transmitter is powered by latching down the red power button next to the bind button. The LED in the power button will start flashing, not as fast as the receiver LED, but that one should change rate and synchronise with the flashing of the power button LED. At this point the bind button can be released and after 5 seconds or so, both LEDs should cease flashing and be on steady. That receiver is now bound to that selection of the 12 way switch on that transmitter. The receiver will remember this linking after they are powered down.

With them both powered off, a second loco can be bound, either to the same selection as the first, or a different one. If the same selection is used, the transmitter will NOT forget the first bound receiver. If both locos are powered, they will both respond to the transmitter. Handy for 'consists'...

The first procedure can now be followed for another receiver. Assuming a different 12 way position has been chosen, (Sel.2) and the LED on that receiver is in a steady state, the first receiver Sel.1 that was bound can now be powered.
Sel.2 will remain steady and drivable, but the LED on the receiver bound to Sel.1 will exhibit a double flash routine rather than a steady light. This double flash indicates that the receiver recognises the transmitter and is bound to it, but that it is not currently selected on the 12 way and will therefore not respond to the controls. Turning the 12 way back to Sel.1 will reverse the situation, loco Sel.1 can be driven, and loco Sel.2 receiver will double flash.

(4) I am not entirely clear as to the purpose of the micro-switch on the loco. It is stated “to switch on power from the battery to the receiver”. Is this simply to save battery power when the loco is out of use for an extended period, or does it operate to switch on the battery when that loco is selected by the transmitter? How is the micro-switch actually operated? Is the micro-switch operated remotely (by the transmitter), or does the switch require any manual intervention? (If the latter, how and when?)


The switch is entirely optional, depending on other choices. It is used to prevent the battery from being discharged when the loco is out of use for some time. The reason is that the receiver draws a small amount of current when powered even in standby, some 6mA. There are several options; the battery could be unplugged, but then it will need to be reconnected to be charged. It could be left charging safely on a USB supply like a smartphone or tablet. The battery could be allowed to discharge until the internal circuit switches it off, but then full recharge could take an hour or more.

(5) What is the precise mechanism for re-charging the battery? How is power connected to the battery for re-charging? The 2.5mm x 0.7mm dc socket is designed to allow the battery to be charged from a USB power source, but I don’t see the USB plug on one end of it, unless it is the top plug at upper right on page 23, seen sideways on.


Nick has covered this, I would add that it is a standard USB-A cable with only power at the other end. For charging, note that the rate will be governed by the current available from the supply. PC outputs are usually 500mA, while smartphone and tablet plugs, or the sockets integral with mains sockets are more often 2,000mA.

(6) Finally, if one purchases additional Loco Starter Kits, how are their receivers differentiated from the receiver in the main Starter Kit and from each other? They presumably have different ‘addresses’, but how does the user know what these are?


A sticky label is on the back of my transmitters, with a note (in pencil!) of which loco is bound to which selection. More than one loco could be bound to that selection, as mentioned above, with the option to bind more sets of 12 locos, either with them powered off or in consist.

We will be pleased to receive and reply to more questions as they arise!

Ted.
(A purists' purist)

bobwallison
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby bobwallison » Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:07 am

Nick, Ted,
Great news about the starter pack. Provided it is possible to start and stop smoothly (it seems to have been a problem in the past) I will probably invest in one.
Please can you post a datasheet for the motor that's included in the pack, or provide a link? I'm interested in power output, speed and full dimensions and my Google searches don't even come close to the motor you describe.
Thanks,
Bob

martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:05 am

Bob's question touches on an additional point I had been intending to raise.

In order to be able to select a High Level gearbox with a suitable gear reduction, it is necessary to know the typical operating speed of the motor. That speed is neither the maximum unloaded speed, nor is it the speed that gives maximum torque under full load (which in the case of many of the more traditional motors would in any event have led to rapid over-heating). The sort of figure I have in mind is the RPM giving optimum torque under reasonable load, without risk of of over-heating or undue strain on the motor. The nomograms and notes produced by the late Doug Smith as data sheets for the EMGS Manual were a very useful guide for this purpose, but they pre-dated the modern coreless motors like the Mineaba range.

One factor that influences my choice of gear ratio is the maximum speed that is likely to be reached on my layout, which is a reasonably compact branch terminus where the speed of any train is very unlikely to exceed 30 mph within this area, and so I calculate wheel speeds on that basis. It is a very simple calculation. Take the wheel diameter and multiply it by Pi (3.1416) to give you the circumference of the wheel. At 30 mph, the train will travel a mile in 2 minutes, so half a mile in 1 minute. [Half a mile is 880 yards = 2,640 feet.] So dividing 2,640 by the wheel circumference gives you the speed in RPM at which the axle turns when running at 30 mph. If the wheels of your loco are, say, 5' 2" (5.166), their circumference is 16.23 feet. So the RPM of the axle at 30 mph will be 2,640 divided by 16.23 = 162.66 RPM. Taking the 'optimum' operating speed of the motor and dividing this by 162.66 (or 163) will give you the appropriate (approximate) gear ratio for that application.

So what is the 'optimum' working speed of the 10 x 20 motor that is supplied with the starter kit?
Last edited by martin goodall on Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davebradwell
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby davebradwell » Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:27 pm

In my working days I had the full Portescap application book for their range of equipment motors and that was very clear that motors should normally be operated up to the speed at which maximum power was generated. Conveniently, this is very close to half the no-load speed which is frequently quoted and at which speed you won't get any power out at the shaft. So the textbook reply to your question, Martin, is to gear it for half the given no-load speed. As long as you don't exceed the rated current or voltage all should be well. Models geared higher than this are probably run at excess voltage. Of course your final choice of ratio may be influenced by how well the electronics can control the motor, subject to the warning above.

DaveB

martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:12 pm

My understanding is that the problem of overloading (and consequent rapid heating) identified by Doug Smith only arose with the old 'iron-age' motors, and was not an issue with the Portescap coreless motors, and so presumably it is unlikely to be a problem with the current generation of coreless motors.

I don't have access to my railway library at the moment, so can't refer to Doug Smith's data sheet on Portescaps. My recollection is that they run at significantly lower speeds than 'iron-age' motors and that the gearboxes with which they came fitted therefore required rather more modest reduction ratios than more traditional motors.

I am happy to accept Dave's "half the maximum unloaded speed" rule of thumb for a coreless motor working under not unreasonable load. But this does bring me back to my original question - what is the maximum unloaded speed in RPM of the Maneaba 10 x 20 motor?

Crepello
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby Crepello » Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:14 pm

martin goodall wrote:I am happy to accept Dave's "half the maximum unloaded speed" rule of thumb for a coreless motor working under not unreasonable load. But this does bring me back to my original question - what is the maximum unloaded speed in RPM of the Maneaba 10 x 20 motor?

That 50% of no-load speed isn't plucked out of the ether - it's justified by the maths of a theoretically ideal motor.
The closer to the ideal that your real-world motor is, the closer to the actual sweet spot will the theoretical 50% be.
The coreless types fall into this category.

martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:02 pm

Crepello wrote: That 50% of no-load speed isn't plucked out of the ether - it's justified by the maths of a theoretically ideal motor. The closer to the ideal that your real-world motor is, the closer to the actual sweet spot will the theoretical 50% be. The coreless types fall into this category.

I have no problem with that. I just want to know what the maximum unloaded speed in RPM of the Maneaba 10 x 20 motor is.

davebradwell
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby davebradwell » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:03 pm

Sorry Martin, I thought that at least some basic information was available. You should be safe as long as you don't exceed rated current and voltage - hopefully this information is available. You'll just have no idea how fast the model will be going.

I believe a coreless motor overheats and fails much quicker than an 'iron-age' type as there is very much less mass to heat up.

DaveB

martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:13 pm

The last question I posed has still not been answered.

First of all, as to the identity of the motor - is this the Minebea 12EC10CA ?

If this is the correct identification, then it appears that the unloaded speed at 5 volts is 15,500 RPM.

(As I understand it, this is not a coreless motor, but has 6 poles.)

Are the data I have set above right? If not, can Ted or Nick please post the correct information here.

Many thanks.

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zebedeesknees
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby zebedeesknees » Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:54 pm

bobwallison wrote:Nick, Ted,
Great news about the starter pack. Provided it is possible to start and stop smoothly (it seems to have been a problem in the past) I will probably invest in one.
Please can you post a datasheet for the motor that's included in the pack, or provide a link? I'm interested in power output, speed and full dimensions and my Google searches don't even come close to the motor you describe.
Thanks,
Bob

I hadn't heard about the start/stop smoothness probs Bob, but can assure you that radio control wouldn't make a mech worse than it would be on any DC control. It could make it better, my diesels that have had the pwm frequency reduced to the minimum can creep imperceptibly while I can hear each pole of the motor passing the magnet. Those are with the original Bachmann motor.

We have tested a number of motors, all very inexpensive, four are cored and one coreless.

The smallest, the one Nick has installed in his 0-4-4T, is an M20.

Model: M20 motor
Voltage range: DC 1.5V~5.0V
Motor size: 10*8*15mm
Shaft diameter: 1.0mm
Shaft length: 8.4mm
Weight: 4g
-----------------------------
Test data:
Voltage:1.5V No-load speed: 6800RPM No-load current: 9mA
Voltage:3.7V No-load speed: 16300RPM No-load current: 14mA
Voltage:5.0V No-load speed: 21000RPM No-load current: 18mA
-----------------------------

Note: the maximum voltage supplied by the receiver with a 1S battery is 4 volts, the minimum will be 3.2 volts.

The next larger is the N30, very much general purpose, and the one included in the kits:-

Model: N30 motor
Motor specifications: 10*12 MM
Motor length : 20 MM
Motor shaft diameter: 1.0 MM
Output shaft length: 11 MM
Weight : 8 g

Voltage : 6 V Speed : 20000 RPM
No-load current: 48 MA (stall current is 0.92 A)
Voltage: 7.2 V Speed: 23800 RPM
No-load current: 55 MA (stall current is 1.1 A)

This one Nick has installed in a GW Mogul, Pannier tank, and SRM.

In my locos I tried a similar, slightly torquier version, the FF-031:-

Part Number : FF-031
Type : metal brush motor
Dimensions: 20*14*12mm
Shaft diameter : 1.5mm
Shaft length : 4mm
Mouning holes : 2-M1.4
Mounting holes distance : 10mm
Weight : 10g
Voltage range : DC1.5-3.0V
No-load speed : 5480rpm~8900rpm
Rated Voltage : 3V
No-load current : 0.03A
Power : 0.3W
Torque : 5.0g.cm

Tested recently in a 2251 loco with High Level chassis and 54:1 gearbox I found that it covered 1000mm in 6 seconds at max. speed, which comes out at 42 scale fps, or a hint under 30 scale mph. It has plenty torque, enough to spin the wheels easily though weighing 160g, so the next will get the 40 or even the 30 reductions H/L 'box. More for my interest I suspect, drawbar pull was measured at 96g.

So far I would suggest that the first motor could represent Steam power classes 1 to 2, the second and third classes 3 to 5, and for more there is the FF-050. Nick has used one in his GW King Class...

Mabuchi FF50

Motor dimensions : 11.7*15.5 MM
Motor height : 26.9 MM
Shaft diameter : 1.5 MM
Shaft length : 9 MM
Weight : 18g

Voltage: 5V, No-load current: 80mA, Speed :14400RPM;
Voltage: 6V, No-load current: 91mA, Speed :17200RPM;

Or a slightly different version, just ordered for testing, should be with us by the end of September:-

Part Number : FF-050SB-13130
Dimensions : 26.8mm*15.4*mm*11.8mm
Shaft diameter : 1.5mm
Shaft length : 11mm
Weight : 17g
Voltage range : DC3V~9V
Voltage : 3V , No-load current : 38mA , Speed : 6200rpm
Voltage : 5.9V , No-load current : 55mA , Speed : 12400rpm
Voltage : 9V , No-load current : 95mA , Speed : 18500rpm

These would be for classes 6 to 9!

And the only coreless motor tested for locos, as opposed to the many very small ones for DMUs and EMUs, the 1015 that is in the 14xx on the CLAG site:-

1.Motor diameter: 10mm
2.Motor height: 15mm
3.Output shaft diameter; 1.0mm
4.Output shaft length: 6mm
5.Motor weight: 5g
6.Voltage: DC 5V
7.Speed: 18500RPM
8.No-load current: 36mA
9.Stall current: 1.47A

A problem with these is that they have no fixing holes in the front face, so mounting them is a little more of a challenge.

DSCF0010 (4).JPG


They can be mounted in a slice of brass tube, 10mm od that has been slit lengthways, which holds them well, or for fitting to a High Level gearbox a mounting plate can be scratched as shown. This was cut from a piece of 60 thou poly sheet, tapped 12BA. Thicker material might be better, as would perhaps using tiny self tapping screws rather than tapping plastic 12BA.

More on this on the CLAG website under 'Radio control options'. I don't recall what ratio gearbox came with the chassis kit but going by the worm gear it is probably a 54:1. With this combination the performance could be described as 'brisk', but that is running light, and the 14xxs were when light.

Ted.
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chrisg
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby chrisg » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:06 pm

I am most excited about these developments. I have spent a long time in discussion with Protocab about their system, but it has never got off the ground. I am now more than ready to experiment with fitting radio control to my O2 0-4-4T chassis which I had been resigned to building with conventional pick-ups.

I cannot get to Scaleforum because of a "cock-up" with holiday dates, and I am hoping there will be an alternative way to secure a starter kit which doesn't involve being at Scaleforum. How will I be able to order one after the event?


Many thanks


Chris Gardner

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Winander
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby Winander » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:38 pm

Lord Colnago wrote:The show prices are as follows:

Complete Starter kit: £115
Loco kit: £45

After the show, these kits will be available from the Stores at the following prices:

Complete Starter kit: £130
Loco kit: £50

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8245#p92878
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martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:01 am

Winander wrote:
Lord Colnago wrote:The show prices are as follows:

Complete Starter kit: £115
Loco kit: £45

After the show, these kits will be available from the Stores at the following prices:

Complete Starter kit: £130
Loco kit: £50

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8245#p92878


I did draw attention to this correction in my first post in this thread.

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JackBlack
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby JackBlack » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:39 am

We'll have spares of the M20, N30 and FF50 motors at Scaleforum if anyone wants to try them out, or swap them with the N30 that's in the kit.

The same goes for batteries, I'll bring some different sizes if people want to swap, and I'll bring some spare connectors if anyone wants to have a go at putting those together.

Thanks, Nick


Nick Allport
CLAG


martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:50 am

At last we have the answer I was looking for (although I now see that this information was also buried in the wodge of data set out in Ted’s post yesterday).

So the motor in the starter kit (unless you want to try one of the alternatives on offer) is the Minebea N30, which has a no-load speed of 20,000 RPM at 6 volts. But I note that the maximum voltage delivered by the battery supplied with the starter kit is actually 4.2 volts. (With no technical knowledge of these matters, I am assuming quite arbitrarily that the unloaded speed at 4.2 volts would be about 14,000 RPM. Maybe it is, or maybe not.)

My understanding (but please correct this if I am wrong) is that the Minebea N30 is not a coreless motor. So I am not sure if the “half unloaded speed” rule explained by Dave Bradwell applies here.

But if we make the assumption that 7,000 RPM is a reasonable loaded motor speed for the N30 (and do please make it clear if this not the case) then, taking my earlier example of a loco with 5’2” wheels - a 7,000 RPM motor speed divided by a wheel speed 163 RPM at 30 MPH gives a nominal gear ratio of 43:1. The nearest gear ratio in the High Level range would appear to be 38:1, so this looks like the appropriate great ratio for this application.

I would nevertheless be grateful if Ted or Nick would please say whether the assumptions on which I have based this calculation (particularly regarding the loaded motor speed of the N30) are right or wrong.

davebradwell
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby davebradwell » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:32 pm

Speed will be linear enough with voltage, Martin and certainly within your rounding error in choosing nearest available gear ratio. In practice air resistance on the spinning armature will reduce the expected higher top speeds. You can see how well it holds up by playing with Ted's figures and you've come up with an entirely sensible answer anyway.

DaveB

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zebedeesknees
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby zebedeesknees » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:28 pm

martin goodall wrote:But if we make the assumption that 7,000 RPM is a reasonable loaded motor speed for the N30 (and do please make it clear if this not the case) then, taking my earlier example of a loco with 5’2” wheels - a 7,000 RPM motor speed divided by a wheel speed 163 RPM at 30 MPH gives a nominal gear ratio of 43:1. The nearest gear ratio in the High Level range would appear to be 38:1, so this looks like the appropriate great ratio for this application.
I would nevertheless be grateful if Ted or Nick would please say whether the assumptions on which I have based this calculation (particularly regarding the loaded motor speed of the N30) are right or wrong.

It would appear that we both have had senior moments with the High Level gearbox ratios on this Martin!
My quoting 54:1 should have read 45:1, and I can't find 38:1 on Chris's site.

But it looks like the 45:1 is as close as we're likely to get to your calculations, and is certainly the ratio I would choose to match your specifications.
Actually, since the kit motor spec suggests that it would rev slightly higher than my FF-031, your loco should be able to slightly exceed the 30mph target.

Ted.
(A purists' purist)

martin goodall
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby martin goodall » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:53 pm

Yes. I don't know where I got 38:1 from. (As you say, Ted, a senior moment).

The nearest ratio for a High Level gearbox is 45:1, which is even closer to my 43:1 calculation.

(I should have known this. I only recently bought a 45:1 Roadrunner from Chris Gibbon. Doh!)

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JackBlack
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby JackBlack » Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:26 pm

zebedeesknees wrote:It would appear that we both have had senior moments with the High Level gearbox ratios on this Martin!
My quoting 54:1 should have read 45:1, and I can't find 38:1 on Chris's site.


Actually this is my fault. Ted asked me what ratio gearboxes I used and I couldn't remember, so went back and looked at my High Level invoices, and there it says 54:1! So I guess I'm using 45:1...


Nick Allport
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bobwallison
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby bobwallison » Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:22 pm

I still haven't found any data sheets regarding the N30 motor - maybe they don't exist and that is one of the reasons the motors are a few pounds each, rather than twenty or thirty. In fairness, I never saw proper data sheets for Mashima motors either, the best information was that produced by the EMGS based on physical testing by Mr Smith.

But given all the information supplied by Ted and others, I think we have enough to work out which motor will best fit our needs.
Here is a dimensioned photo of (I think ) the N30, which may assist further.

Minebea N30.png


Thank you one and all.
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:17 am

martin goodall wrote:Yes. I don't know where I got 38:1 from. (As you say, Ted, a senior moment).

The nearest ratio for a High Level gearbox is 45:1, which is even closer to my 43:1 calculation.

(I should have known this. I only recently bought a 45:1 Roadrunner from Chris Gibbon. Doh!)


Martin,

38:1 is one of the ratio introduced AFAIK by Ultrascale and used by a number of etched "gearbox" manufacturers. Markits copied the gear format and ratio, as well as 50:1 which is another popular Ultrascale gear set ratio.

Jol

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zebedeesknees
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Re: New radio control starter kits

Postby zebedeesknees » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:04 am

That ratio rang a different bell here - it was a Gibson standard gearbox. Plastic symmetric sides and the worm shaft running in the plastic without bearings. I bought a couple, and fitted one to an Impetus chassis for a 350hp, now 08, diesel shunter. The bearing surfaces worked okay, but the end thrust caused the worm to chew it's way through the plastic. I modified it with two frame bearings flange inwards on that shaft, and though retired, it still works. The second one along with an unstarted Impetus chassis are still on that shelf...

My suspicion is that the gears were cut by Markits, that being well before Brian Rogers retired from Borg-Warner, bought much of their machine shop in Letchworth and started GSL..

Ted.
(A purists' purist)


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