Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

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JackBlack
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Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:06 pm

Hi folks,

I've been working on this Finney Pannier tank for the last few weeks. It's such a lovely kit. For this project I wanted to try out another of the 4V Mabuchi motors, this one the N10. It's tiny, and just needed the shaft to be sleeved with a brass tube and it fitted nicely to a High Level gearbox, bolt holes in the correct place, already tapped M1.4. So, a few photos and a video...

The kit, probably familiar to a few of you:

IMG_20200203_201359554.jpg


Simple CSB set-up using High Level hornblocks and carriers:

IMG_20200205_071515122.jpg


Mabuchi N10 motor and gearbox:

IMG_20200206_083026650.jpg


The chassis is designed to power the rear axle, but I prefer to power the centre one, so I made some modifications to the centre chassis spacer to accommodate the motor:

IMG_20200206_083041244.jpg


The basic set-up with one of my old 14430 750mAh batteries:

IMG_20200210_082557031.jpg


Then the new 10440 1000mAh batteries arrived amid much excitement:

IMG_20200212_174442108.jpg


The centre 10440 has been fitted with a protection circuit, on the right is the 14430. The size doesn't look that different, but it's actually much smaller and easier to fit (and remove), and of course has 1/3 more capacity:

IMG_20200227_082954296.jpg


Body almost done...

IMG_20200228_072906231.jpg


Basic chassis set-up:

IMG_20200301_135021955.jpg


Power and R/C. I'm using DT RX63 from Micron Radio Control, but could just as easily be Protocab or equivalent, if they'll fit:

IMG_20200301_135042487.jpg


Pretty much done aside from chassis and cab detailing and some other bits and pieces:

IMG_20200301_224650324.jpg


And finally, a little Youtube video of it running up and down my test track:



Runs nice and smoothly, so far so good. I need to add some weight and see what it'll pull. And then see what running time I can get from that battery, but I'm thinking it should be around 8 hours...

Cheers, Nick

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Andy W
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby Andy W » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:47 am

Extremely interesting!
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myoxall
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby myoxall » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:02 pm

I have read, and re-read, not only this latest post but also the other posts under the subject of Radio Control on this forum and find the topic fascinating. I wonder if there is further guidance or available tutorials on the matter? I have no problem fitting a motor to existing models with pickups but connecting Batteries with their associated protection circuit, a Receiver and Charging point, in the correct sequence with no experience of electrical circuitry is beyond the pale for me. The photos are very helpful but all show completed stages of sub-assembly before final connection and fitting. Is there an idiots guide available? A goes to B and C goes to D etc. Yes, I really would need it that basic; embarrassing!

I have asked Missenden Modellers if a course could be sourced at one of their two annual weekends but am not sure of the level of interest or uptake.

My interest would be fitting Radio Control into an 0-6-0 SR E1 tank engine. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Alan Woodard
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby Alan Woodard » Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:21 pm

I'm with you on this one. Call me electronic's thicky.

Al.

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JackBlack
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:32 am

I am more than happy to help either or both of you with this, Believe me, you are now where I was a couple of years ago. Ted Scannell has done all the heavy lifting on this, I've just picked out a specific way to make it work for me with standardised components.

I've got it to the point now where the RX, battery, switch, charging socket and motor all go together just by plugging them in to a central connector.

I'm happy to supply this central connector and the bits and pieces to people at cost, on the condition that you post your experiences in this Radio Control section! If there's enough interest maybe we can find a way to get these produced in a more "bulk" way and available from the Stores.

I'm a bit up-to-my-neck in work right now but later on I'll post some more details of the connectors, although it is covered in the Castle topic I think.

Cheers, Nick

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zebedeesknees
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby zebedeesknees » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:51 pm

myoxall wrote:I have read, and re-read, not only this latest post but also the other posts under the subject of Radio Control on this forum and find the topic fascinating. I wonder if there is further guidance or available tutorials on the matter?

There is some guidance on websites from component manufacturers like Micron radio control and marketeers like Protocab. Studying what they offer and then asking specific questions in this radio control section of the forum will certainly elicit a response from either myself or Nick -or both!

I have no problem fitting a motor to existing models with pickups but connecting Batteries with their associated protection circuit, a Receiver and Charging point, in the correct sequence with no experience of electrical circuitry is beyond the pale for me.

There is really little difference other than the realisation that polarity, the + and the - matters within the loco. The motor connections don't care as that affects the direction that the motor goes, and that is covered by the output of the receiver. In the simplest form, the + from the battery connects to the + on the receiver, and the - connections similarly. Battery suppliers usually state whether there is an internal protection circuit (recommended) or they state 'bare cell' which means that there isn't, so it's advisable to stay away from those. If neither is stated in the supplier's description, ask them. Bare cells tend to be smaller for a given capacity but the postal authorities are still in project fear mode over Li-Po so they may not arrive anyway!

Charging the battery is more specific to the loco and the system already in place, so it's difficult to generalise. The + and the - still matters, and the battery type needs consideration. We are far from standardisation on batteries yet.

The photos are very helpful but all show completed stages of sub-assembly before final connection and fitting. Is there an idiots guide available? A goes to B and C goes to D etc. Yes, I really would need it that basic; embarrassing!

No need to be embarrassed, in that respect at least, you are 'normal'!

I have asked Missenden Modellers if a course could be sourced at one of their two annual weekends but am not sure of the level of interest or uptake.

If our experience at Scaleforum last September is anything to go by, it may be sold out.

My interest would be fitting Radio Control into an 0-6-0 SR E1 tank engine. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Send me a 'private' and I'll be delighted to assist. Alan W. too.. everyone... there's a kind of 'hump' that we have to get over...

Ted.

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JackBlack
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:32 am

Just to clarify further and to illustrate how simple this is, here are my basic components:

IMG_20200318_090048169.jpg


From left to right - battery already fitted with protection circuit, connector, receiver which is a DT63, the N10 motor that bolts onto the High Level gearbox and at the bottom the switch. There is also a small charging socket that I don't have to hand at the moment. And the Pannier tank body is there to give you a sense of the size of all this.

And here they are all connected up:

IMG_20200318_090314565.jpg


The plugs/sockets are all polarised and colour coded so it's not possible to connect anything incorrectly. If I switch this on, the led on the RX starts flashing, I then switch on my controller, the led on the RX will change to continuously on, and then I can control the motor.

The intention is to have these components available for people to buy as a starter kit. Not sure how or where from, but for now I am happy to make them and send them to anyone interested. You would choose a battery, and a motor. When they arrive you connect them together, you would need to have the DT transmitter from Micron Radio Control. You do the binding of the receiver to the transmitter, which is very simple, and then you fit the components into your loco.

I normally have the motor and RX in the chassis, charging socket somewhere suitable (for this Pannier Tank it will also be in the chassis) and switch somewhere suitable (for this loco I will fit it behind the cab steps on one side, but I have also fitted the switch in the cab and left the roof removeable). The components are all small enough to fit easily, and I have lead strips in the bunker and sides of the tanks for weight (and room for more if needed). Since I'm using csbs the wheels drop out and the whole thing can quite easily come apart and any of the components be replaced.

This set-up is for a tank locomotive, you would probably want a different battery and motor for a tender loco, and a longer connection lead between the battery and the receiver.

Obviously this is a basic implementation, deliberately kept simple (it's the only way I can do it!). If you can get a chassis built and running smoothly, then the rest of this is really easy.

You can get into more complicated methods of switching the loco on and off, and you can get into lots more complicated methods of charging (charging from the track, induction charging etc), but to be honest I don't see the point. We now have rechargeable batteries small enough to fit into a little tank engine that will last a day, so switch it on, run trains for a few hours, switch it off, put it in a cradle and charge it overnight.

I hope that helps! Thanks, Nick

myoxall
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby myoxall » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:16 pm

Hi Nick and Ted,

Thanks for your very informative replies. I have checked the suppliers websites as you have suggested and have found a wealth of information there, which will take time for me to fully absorb. I think I have grasped the basics after re-reading the Castle post and paying attention to the wiring diagrams. I have now taken the plunge and have ordered the components required, as per your suggestions. The chap at Micron was most helpful.

One thing I couldn't fathom out for myself was how the 10440 had been fitted with a protection circuit, as this was masked by the protective shrink wrap, are you able to elucidate?

The second question is, What charger do you recommend for use with the fitted jack? and do you have to switch the toggle switch off before charging?

Once I have all the bits and pieces together I will post, with pictures, my progress on this forum as you have requested.

Nick, your "plug and play" suggestion, for electrical components/connectors has my support. If we can continue to demonstrate the viability of RC at 4mm scale, especially with regard to the control of small tank engines, it could become the norm for the future!

Lots to do!!!! :P

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JackBlack
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:06 am

myoxall wrote:One thing I couldn't fathom out for myself was how the 10440 had been fitted with a protection circuit, as this was masked by the protective shrink wrap, are you able to elucidate?

The second question is, What charger do you recommend for use with the fitted jack? and do you have to switch the toggle switch off before charging?


Unfortunately I'm now stuck in Portugal under State of Emergency for the next month or so, and all my stuff is in London. So I can't actually show you the battery/protection circuit. Maybe Ted can. What I've done (the same as Ted I expect) is I used these strip protectors:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3A-Protection-Plate-Board-For-1S-3-7V-Li-Ion-Lithium-Battery-W-Soldering-Strip/163992956622

You solder the red and black wires to the protection circuit, and then solder the tabs at the top and bottom to the top and the bottom of the battery. I then put some tape over the soldered tabs and shrinkwrap it using a heat gun. Obviously you need to do this carefully as it's a Lipo battery, but as yet no problems.

As Ted says it's better if you can find batteries with all this already done (eg the 14430's already come fitted and wired), but these 10440 1000mAh batteries are special and worth the extra effort!

For a charger I use one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4PCS-Lipo-Battery-and-Charger-For-Syma-F5C-X5C-RC-Drone-Helicopter-Quadcopter-/124059049375

Although you could just use the USB cable and plug it straight into a USB charging hub, because the protection circuit stops the battery from over-charging.

I hope that helps! Cheers, Nick

myoxall
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby myoxall » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:22 pm

Thanks Nick,

A great help! I have ordered some protection circuits as you have suggested and understand how they are connected up now. I will also shrink wrap them, as you suggest, for protection as they do look quite delicate. I will also go with your suggestion to persevere with the 10440 battery as it would appear to hold its charge for longer and hopefully deliver a better performance.

It would appear to me that all I would need to charge the battery, once it has been connected up, is the USB to jack connector, from an appropriate 5v plug adapter or USB hub as the protection circuit would stop the battery from overcharging. Is that correct?

I will now sit back and wait for all the bits and pieces to arrive, this could take some time as the motors are on order from China.

I hope all is well with you in Portugal, keep safe, and thanks for the help.

Martin

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JackBlack
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:50 pm

Hi Martin,

myoxall wrote:It would appear to me that all I would need to charge the battery, once it has been connected up, is the USB to jack connector, from an appropriate 5v plug adapter or USB hub as the protection circuit would stop the battery from overcharging. Is that correct?


Yes absolutely. The only (slight) advantage of using the charger inbetween the USB hub and the loco is that it has a little indicator light to show when it's finished charging. But that not really important.

And you mentioned this earlier, you can charge while the RX is switched on, but I tend to switch mine of when I'm charging them as they are usually upside down in a cradle.

myoxall wrote:I hope all is well with you in Portugal, keep safe, and thanks for the help.


Thank you! You too. I'm trying to just view it as lots of extra modelling time!

Cheers, Nick

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JackBlack
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby JackBlack » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:38 pm

Found my mojo a bit over the weekend and got the Pannier Tank basically done. I finished the cab detailing last night. It's not perfect but I'm happy with it, and I think I'm getting a little bit better with each build.

IMG_20200321_203219_242.jpg


My attempt at the backhead, and a bit of a cruel close-up. I need to accumulate some more variety of sizes of copper and lead wire...

IMG_20200323_223230_564.jpg


IMG_20200324_004455227.jpg


IMG_20200324_004433229.jpg


My solution for the switch, I decided this time to attach it behind the cab steps, I can switch it on and off with a pair of tweezers. Previously I've put the switch in the cab, but it's not ideal to keep taking the cab roof on and off.

IMG_20200324_083943143.jpg


It's visible, but I don't think will be noticed, especially when it's painted black...

IMG_20200324_083953639.jpg


And now all undercoated and ready for my favourite bit, painting and weathering!

IMG_20200324_140648921_HDR.jpg


Cheers, Nick

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Finney Pannier Tank Radio Control/Battery

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:33 pm

Lovely work Nick.

I think the backhead is a work of art :thumb
Tim Lee


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