MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

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JackBlack
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MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:49 am

Hi folks,

During our demo last weekend at Scaleforum I mentioned to a few people that my next mission was to build a locomotive with a 4v motor and radio control. Mr Scannell found some motors on eBay we think intended for electric razors and both of us ordered some, they're about £2 each. The particular interest to me with these motors is that they have a 1.5mm shaft and m2 fixing holes correctly spaced for High Level gearboxes. I like to keep things simple...

I started the project this week. I'm building a Mitchell 45xx, somewhat larger and roomier than the 517 I was demonstrating at the weekend, but this is a fairly chunky motor. I have built some of the body first, mainly to ensure I can fit everything. Some photos attached...

Motor and gearbox assembly, this is a HL LoadHauler gearbox:

IMG_20191005_093027750.jpg


Battery, 750mah, 3.7v, length 44mm, diameter 14mm, lipo rechargeable with protection circuit. This is the same type of battery that I have in the 517 that I was demonstrating last weekend. It was running pretty much constantly up and down our little test track from 9am to 4.30pm without needing to be recharged, and actually still has power now! The Deltang receiver is shown here also.

IMG_20191005_093054623.jpg


Some surgery needed to the front of the tanks to allow for the battery to be inserted into the smokebox:

IMG_20191005_085826379.jpg


IMG_20191005_085846415.jpg


Looks like it will all fit!

IMG_20191005_090200654.jpg


I'll be working on this all weekend so as long as Netflix doesn't get in the way I'll be posting some progress updates from time to time...

Thank you! Nick

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Le Corbusier
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:51 am

Great stuff ... will be watching this with interest :thumb
Tim Lee

Knuckles
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby Knuckles » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:06 pm

Same here.

I've a friend who has stuffed cheap repurposed RC equipment in 009 with success so as components keep shrinking viability keeps ascending.

Always fancied DCC Sound so waiting to see if there are significant developments there. Still on DC (happy enough) and always torn between DCC and RC as advancement options.

Will wait a bit longer. :)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Guy Rixon
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:56 pm

The capacity printed on the battery is interesting. Probably enough to take a loco through an exhibition day.

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:57 pm

The capacity printed on the battery is interesting. Probably enough to take a loco through an exhibition day.


Yes, well like I mentioned in the earlier post, on Sunday at Scaleforum I ran my GWR 517 up and down our little test track pretty much from 9am to 4.30pm non-stop, same type of battery.

Just to clarify and put a bit of context around this...

I'm not using repurposed RC equipment (although I have in the past), the TX and RX I'm using now are specifically designed for model railway control:

IMG_20191005_185338504.jpg


The transmitter is a Deltang TX22 from Micronradiocontrol which I bought already built for around £70. They only seem to have it in kit form at the moment but the kit is £38 - http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/tx_rail.html. The TX can be bound to 12 different RX units - IE one controller can control 12 locomotives. Mr Scannell has built several of these from the kit and says it's easy, but I prefer to keep my kit-building to model trains :) .

The transmitter I'm using here is a Deltang RX63 which costs £32 - http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/product/deltang/dt_rx63.html. There are various receivers but I prefer this one as it's the smallest. I order these from Micron with all the wires soldered on and it arrives shrinkwrapped as you see here.

I have destroyed two of these RXs in the past, one by trying to solder the wires myself, and the other by trying to power it using a 12V mains transformer. You have to be careful with these components - only power them using the battery.

The RX will handle up to 12V, however the battery output is 3.7V, so if you wish to use the standard 12V Mashima motors and High Level gearboxes you need need a voltage booster between the battery and the RX. In the 517 I brought to Scaleforum I have fitted the booster shown below into the coal bunker:

IMG_20191005_191359000.jpg


These boosters you can find on eBay for about £1 each. This will boost the 3.7V up to the 12V required to run the Mashima motor, but it's a pain to have to do this. I had to cut the booster down on either side to fit it into the bunker, and it's more wires to have to deal with. As I mentioned in my OP I like to keep things simple.

Which is the reason for trying this 4V motor.

In addition to the RX, the battery and the motor, I will need a tiny switch between the battery and the RX, and a tiny socket to plug a USB charger in to charge the battery:

IMG_20191005_193412331.jpg


Both of these items come from eBay and are pennies. I still have to work out where to put the switch and the charging socket.

So my cost so far on this project (aside from the 45xx kit and the wheels) - RX £34.50 (32 plus additional 2.50 for the leads attached), battery £2, motor £2, High Level gearbox £16, plus maybe another £5 for switch, charging socket, wires etc.

Just to mention also - the battery I'm using came from China via AliExpress. I had to order 100 of them, I paid a total of around £200 delivered (the shipping and import duty was more than the cost of the batteries!), but for me they are the key to making this whole R/C thing viable for modelling small steam locomotives since they will fit perfectly in the smokebox/boiler and as Guy points out have higher capacity than most of the small flat lipo batteries you find on eBay that are designed for drones. And since I'm highly unlikely to ever build 100 R/C locomotives I have spares if anyone wants one.

So lets see how I get on with this. It may not work, but there's only one way to find out 8-) .

Thanks, Nick

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jsherratt
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby jsherratt » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:19 pm

Very interesting. Much stuff to ponder and think about here. John

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 pm

Little bit of an update. I put the chassis together on Sunday. Simple csb set-up using High Level hornblocks and carriers:

IMG_20191006_184157520.jpg


IMG_20191006_185227336.jpg


IMG_20191006_194457378.jpg


Similar to the Mitchell 517 the chassis spacers are very narrow, I guess the earlier kits are like this. I needed to switch out the Load Hauler gearbox for a Slimline. But other than that it all went together nicely:

IMG_20191006_194534228.jpg


Last night and tonight were spent rebuilding the gearbox and fitting the wheels and coupling rods and getting the quartering right.

Once that was all done I have a chassis that I'm pretty happy with. I made a quick video on my phone of some testing. This has the RX, battery and switch set up on a breadboard and the motor on long leads:



The control system could be the Deltang stuff I use or Protocab if that is your preference. As far as I'm concerned the hard part is done now, 4V motor so far works great. Tomorrow I'll make a start on the cylinders...

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:24 am

This is the eBay link for the motor used in this project:

Link to motor

David Catton
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby David Catton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:18 pm

Or see this one <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MABUCHI-FF-050SK-11170-Motor-DC-3V-9V-13800RPM-High-Speed-Precious-Metal-Brush/283454997179>

HTH,

David C

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Le Corbusier
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 am

Tim Lee

nigelcliffe
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby nigelcliffe » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:44 am

I think I'd want to see a bit of medium term testing of the motor. Run it up/down the speed range, bit of low speed crawling, and attempting to simulate train load for a few days.

What worries me is the product description of "precious metal brushes". That can mean all sorts of things, but has often been "bit of thin wire with tiny amount of gold plating". Which can wear and erode very rapidly in the use patterns in model railways.
I know the control system is different to 12vDC: there is no track/pickup intermittent power issue, the motor speed control is high frequency PWM, etc.. But, still concerned about motor longevity.


- Nigel

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:59 am

nigelcliffe wrote:But, still concerned about motor longevity.


Performance of the motor we'll only know over time. I can do some load testing the next time I visit Mr Scannell as he is set up for that, but I don't have a large test track - would be nice to run it on a large roundy-roundy for a few hours.

Reliability I'm not too concerned about at the moment. These motors are £1.66 each, if one fails it's a five minute job to replace it with a new one. I just ordered another ten...

David Catton
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby David Catton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:42 am

The reason I posted the alternative link is that yesterday I ordered 5 to experiment with at £1.13 each (post free)!

I have no reason at this stage to doubt that these motors will have reasonable performance - they are made by a reputable manufacturer and sold for use in electric razors and various other domestic devices requiring circular motive power . . . That should indicate adequate life, shouldn't it?

At the price I've paid, the cost of a Swiss made motor would cover a lifetime supply of these.

I'm going to investigate N20 motors next.

David C

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:09 pm

David can you repost the link to your motors? When I click the one you posted before it just takes me to the same one as mine.

Thanks, Nick

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grovenor-2685
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:18 pm

That's because its the same link :)
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

David Catton
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby David Catton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm

D'oh . . .

OK - let's try again <https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MABUCHI-FF-050SK-11170-DC9V-13300RPM-Mute-Mini-DC-Motor-for-Car-AV-CD-DVD-Player/252337642830?hash=item3ac07edd4e:g:KkMAAOSw~AVYsP-n>

Apologies!

David C

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:16 pm

They look exactly the same as mine but 50p cheaper!


David Catton
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby David Catton » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:15 pm

"They look exactly the same as mine but 50p cheaper!"

Yes 14 for the price of 10 of the ones you bought . . .

David C

MickRalph
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby MickRalph » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:30 pm

The original ones are shown as "new", whereas the cheaper ones are "used".

Mick

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:43 am

David Catton wrote:I'm going to investigate N20 motors next.


Ah yes, I've ordered four of those:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2PCS-Minebea-N20-Motor-DC-6V-12V-7-4v-9v-High-Speed-Mini-12mm-Electric-DC-Motor/253470531804

As well as N10's

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mabuchi-Mini-N10-Motor-DC-1-5V-3V-4-5V-Precious-Metal-Brush-Mute-Solar-Motor-DIY/282940332800

And N30's

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NMB-Mini-N30-Motor-DC-5V-6V-7-2V-23000RPM-High-Speed-Precious-Metal-Brush-Motor/254372567940

And also these, which are 3v, so not sure how well they'll work with 3.7v from a lipo battery, but it's too tempting to try it out as it has 1.5mm shaft, M2 fixing holes and 10mm spacing so will bolt right onto a High Level gearbox...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC1-5V-3V-15000RPM-High-Speed-17mm-18mm-Mini-020-Small-Round-Motor-DIY-Toy-Parts/253238461897

I found some brass tube with 1.1 inner and 1.5mm outer so I can sleeve the other motor shafts - something I've not tried before, but Mr Scannell has had success with this method.

I am now in at home on Portugal until October 28th so no more progress on the 45XX until I'm get back to London, but then I have three weeks of evenings and weekends to see if I can finish it...

I would be very interested to see anyone else's r/c projects.

Cheers, Nick

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JackBlack
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby JackBlack » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:58 pm

Just a little update on this. I'm now back in London and have some time to resume this project. This week I've built the cylinders and got them working. Not much clearance but it all works nice and smoothly.

As mentioned in my Motors post I received my batch of motors from China and decided to replace the original FF50 motor with a 4v Mabuchi N30:

IMG_20191102_140856061.jpg


This motor is 20mm x 12mm with a 1mm shaft and cost £1.04. I used some brass tube that came with the 45xx kit to sleeve the shaft up to 1.5mm so I can use the same High Level gearbox, the motor has 8.5mm fixing holes tapped M1.5. It's quite a bit smaller than the FF50.

IMG_20191102_140217360.jpg


Testing seems good, very smooth and very quiet:



I'm going to continue the build with the N30, but it's not really a huge problem to switch back to the larger FF50 if that looks like it will struggle. But I'm thinking it will be fine.

Next step is to complete the chassis, and then put together switch/charging socket/RX and battery inside the body so I have a running locomotive.

Nick

dave_long
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby dave_long » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:22 am

Hi Nick
Slightly off topic but you mention your booster board in the first segment of photos, if you do require them in the future, I can recommend the Pololu 9v and 12v step up regulators. Smaller than your Rx. I've used both with 12v motors but have to admit I've preferred using the 9v step up as it seems to provide better control over the motor.

Sold here
https://www.robotshop.com/uk/9v-step-up ... v12f9.html

Dave

decauville1126
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby decauville1126 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:41 pm

I've used the boost boards that Nick shows ok with 12v motors after he "put me right" at Scaleforum as to why a Mashima 1020 would run but not start on a single lipo, and they have an advantage that you can adjust the output voltage. But I've also used these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-DC-2-5V-1 ... 2749.l2649

which although not adjustable, can be bought in a range of preset outputs. But they are much smaller than the previously mentioned ones. At the price offered it makes sense to purchase a range.

Having long used cheap 1.5v motors in SM32 locos with 3.7v lipo's and Deltang gear I've often wondered if we really need 12v in the smaller scales, so enjoying this developing story with interest.

dave_long
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Re: MItchell 45xx battery/radio control

Postby dave_long » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:28 pm

I'd certainly look at the Pololu regulators, I've never seen the point in the adjustable versions or having a step down function, plus they are even smaller.


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