Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

[PeteT]

That vent looks just the job Dave!

Interesting to see the parts Ralph has, and also the drawing covering that curly vent - Mike's CAD, and the other drawings I seen, don't cover the option.

[ralphrobertson]

Looks almost like scratch building, but without the need to mark out the parts. There appears to be an ex-L&Y Class 27 lurking in the background. How about posting something about that?

Hi Dave, yes it certainly was like scratch building with the exception that the rivet detail was actually very well done and didn't need punching out but you did have to cut out everything else. And yes, that is a L&Y Class 27 but not just one, I am making two of them. These are from Craftsman kits but I etched my own chassis for these. I will start something elsewhere rather than put anything on Pete's thread.

Ralph

[Dave Franks]

Seeing the etches from Ralph just shows where we were back then, I remember having to cut out nameplates from such etches, I bought an 'Eclipse' jewellers saw frame to do the job and I'm still using the same saw on the Stanier 3P!

Had a good few hours working on the 3P today, finally rolled the boiler and smokebox, annealed the boiler on the electric cooker ring and managed to bend it round various formers as Dave B. suggested, that's what the blue/black colour is on the boiler, it does polish out with a fibreglass stick.

3P boiler.JPG

Boiler is just tacked to the cab front for the moment and a bolt fixing the smokebox end, all seems to be square so far.

Dave.

[PeteT]

Putting the rest of us to shame, Dave! But it's looking good, & whetting the appetite for when the workbench has room. Are they Alan Gibson washout plugs?

The boiler looks beautifully formed, as it were!

[Horsetan]

I am watching this with a great deal of interest. In my possession I have had, for many years I might add, a set of parts which I inherited from various sources of a very early etch of a Stanier 2-6-2T. Now this must date back to the 1960s or thereabouts and I believe it was produced by the LMS Society. They certainly produced an etch for a Fowler tender which I have actually made but the thing about these early etches was that they were simply a half etch sheet, no cutouts so you had to cut out everything yourself. The photo below shows the model, which I didn't make, and the plate at the bottom shows the cab front and back which need the windows removing and shaping. Oh how we have come a long way in time since then.

20200425_100603.jpg...

This looks more or less the same engraved method as used by Sayer-Chaplin for their kits.

[Dave Franks]

Putting the rest of us to shame, Dave! But it's looking good, & whetting the appetite for when the workbench has room. Are they Alan Gibson washout plugs?

The boiler looks beautifully formed, as it were!

Hi Pete, thanks for your comments. I think the washout plugs are Markits but as they've been loose in the spares box for so long I'm not too sure, I've only got 4 left for the Gibson 3P so I'll need to investigate more.

cheers,
Dave.

[Mike Garwood]

Dave

Markits do 2 types of washout plug. Page 5b..M4WASHD & M4WASHi. The first are the disc type.

Like the build, thanks for all the help and yes I have one too. It will come after the other 56xx and 42xx and they won't be started untill I finish the Std cl5.

Mike

[Dave Franks]

Hi people, today I've been mostly mucking about turning chimneys for Stanier 3Ps.
With no definitive dimensions available I've sized them from photos, dozens of them.
First is the original LMS chimney.

Chimney 1.JPG

Next is the fat chimney to suit the Vortex blastpipe fitted from the late 30s. I think maybe too short and the rim too small.

Chimney 2.JPG

Finally, one I'm kinda happy with, fat chimney 0.75mm taller and a good match when held up against photos on Flicker.

Chimney 3.JPG

So, opinions and please don't hold back.

Hopefully I can cast these for 3P builders and you never know, it could be the start of a new range.

Cheers and keep safe.

Dave.

[Dave Franks]

Dave

Markits do 2 types of washout plug. Page 5b..M4WASHD & M4WASHi. The first are the disc type.

Like the build, thanks for all the help and yes I have one too. It will come after the other 56xx and 42xx and they won't be started untill I finish the Std cl5.

Mike

Hi Mike, thanks yes you are right, I've just found another packet of M4WASHD.

All the best,
Dave.

[PeteT]

Hi Dave, yes I think that 3rd chimney captures the look and dimensions very well! If anything, there is even more of a lip on the prototype,but I presume that will be difficult to create in a repeatable form. Is it also slightly more 'domed' at the top?

Thanks for choosing an angle and image size I could easily find a pretty suitable comparison for!

Dave Chimney 3.png

1 of the 2 Mike supplied (in my 2 kits) made it through intact, but the 2nd has lost 2 chunks out of the bottom rim. They do have a nice representation of the fixings, though these could always be added with Archers.

I've seen a drawing with a height of 1' 11 3/8" from top of smokebox to top of rim, and a 1'3" internal bore.

[Dave Franks]

Hi Pete, I was looking at your post comparing the chimneys and I've realised the chimney on loco 91 is the original chimney and I think this is the one Mike has done, Maybe Mike can comment if he's about. These were replaced from the late 30s by the fatter chimney to suit the Vortex blastpipe so all the BR liveried ones with the standard boiler will have one. The way to spot the 'fat' one is to look at the top rim, it is smaller than the diameter of the chimney body plus the chimney looks too big for the smokebox.... Interestingly you've quoted a height for the chimney of 1'113/8'' which as it turns out is almost exactly what I scaled it at - 7.85mm, about 0.07mm out. I just hope it was the referring to the later chimney.
Anyway I've added a tiny bit onto the top rim as per your comment and if you look carefully there is a dome shape to the chimney cap though it doesn't show very well in brass in the photos also the curve under the cap is tighter than what it looks in the photos. I'll be making a mould soon so hopefully there might be a space for a dome, topfeed and chimneys. Must remember to add the rivets on the saddle too.

3P chimney 4.JPG

3P chimney 4 top.JPG

Started adding the Markits handrail knobs, soldered from the inside, wire not fixed yet.
All the best,
Dave.

[PeteT]

Thanks Dave, you're quite right - and finding a later one to compare it looks good! I think the drawing is the original, I can't see any markups relating to the chimney and the date box is 1934 (I sent you an email, did you receive it?).

Dome and topfeed sound interesting - I've currently got a Millholme top feed, but that can always wait its turn in the fittings box! The other casting (which I have probably mentioned before and so apologies in advance) that I would be interested in is for tank fillers.

[Dave Franks]

Hi Pete, haven't received an email regarding chimneys as yet. Looking at various bits needed for the 3P but haven't done the dome yet, working on a topfeed which is needing modified to suit the smaller boiler diameter.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Dave Franks]

Well, despite being extremely busy I've actually got round to producing the 3P Vortex chimney and the curly vents. The fatter Vortex chimneys were an attempt to improve the steaming of the Stanier 3Ps and were fitted to all the 3Ps with the standard boiler from the late thirties so all the locos would have this chimney from then on. The curly vents were fitted on early locos almost from new and replaced straight vents which drivers complained obstructed forward vision, later locos had the vent pipes on the cab front., boilers did get swapped about so domeless boilers could be on later locos.
I hope to have these items on the website soon and hopefully do the original chimney and other fittings too.

3P cast chimney.JPG

The curly vents are handed for the slope of the tank top and a 1.5mm spigot should ensure a secure fixing.

Dave Franks.

[Dave Franks]

Been working on other fittings for the 3P.

Stanier 3P dome..JPG

and

Stanier 3P topfeed.JPG

Topfeed not in correct place as this boiler will have separate dome and topfeed and I'm not ging to drill more holes just for a photo.
I'll look at the tank filler next, it has a heavy flange with loads of bolts round it, mmmm

[45609]

Dave,

The fittings look the business. Are you going to do them all as castings?

Cheers...Morgan

[Dave Franks]

Hi Morgan, yes all the castings will be available to all soon.
In the picture above with the dome and topfeed the chimney is the original narrow chimney fitted when built, also fitted to some 4Fs it seems, this and the other fittings will be cast next week.

Dave Franks

[Dave Franks]

Well, finally got the website to upload, there had been a problem with the host saying our account was out of date to which I countered but we're still being billed for the website, oh they said.... Eventually they sent a patch and a new pass code number and we've spent all afternoon trying to get it all to work, it did work eventually through Opera but wouldn't work on Firefox until we deleted our cache/history and uploaded again then all of a sudden it was there, way hey.
So, the Stanier 3P tank boiler fittings for the Judith Edge kit are now on the website in the miscellaneous section.
The LMS home page is showing November 2020 date, if you don't get the right page with a link or favourites then use the address www.lanarkshiremodels.com and save that as there may be a couple of ghost pages still around.

Cheers all
Dave Franks

[PeteT]

Thanks Dave, great to know that they're available - I'll have to get an order to you soon.

I didn't get much modelling done over the summer/early autumn, but have recently played with a few 7mm narrow gauge slate waggons as a quick, and 'something completely different', thing to do - and will soon get back on with my P4 hitlist. The J39 is ahead of the 3P though.

However, to add something useful to the topic in hand I'll drop this inspiration in! A silent and short film, at Burley and Keighley in 1956:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE9umWG ... Qf&index=1

I'm intrigued by the set from 33 seconds on, pre grouping - and I'm guessing L&Y rather than Midland.

[steve howe]

7mm narrow gauge eh?!! its a slippery slope Pete!

[PeteT]

True! Obviously any remotely sane person modelling both 4mm SG and 7mm NG would do it all on 16.5mm gauge track, to allow some common testing facilities etc. But my mustard is sturdy stuff so 18.83mm and 14mm it is!

I've been a volunteer on the Ffestiniog since I was 10 so it was never going to be far away.

[essdee]

Hi Pete,
Nice video clip - but at a quick glance, I would agree with the comments thereon, that they are MR - a close-coupled suburban set. Worth checking against the Ratio ones?

As to FR - yes indeed, once bitten, never forgotten. Port and TyB webcams have been a regular keep-sane this self-isolated year; especially with Pony arisen in glory! If a large scale kit for WP appears, I am a goner, SDJR notwithstanding......

Cheers,

Steve

[bécasse]

True! Obviously any remotely sane person modelling both 4mm SG and 7mm NG would do it all on 16.5mm gauge track, to allow some common testing facilities etc. But my mustard is sturdy stuff so 18.83mm and 14mm it is!

However, you are not alone, I first modelled in P4 in 1969 and O14 ten years later, and I still dabble actively in both, I even built a O12 layout a few years back (and was then astounded when Steve Flint wanted an article on it for the Modeller).

[PeteT]

Glad I'm not the only one! Though just because I'm not the only one, doesn't necessarily rule of insanity. Life is much more fun than what is fully classed as 'normal' though.

Thanks Steve, I hadn't noticed the comments! I'm separated from my Midland coaching stock books at the moment, but I will have a dig when I'm reaquainted. Not that I require any further diversions...

It has been interesting to see WP run this year - much more useful for front line services than anyone would have imagined! I still find it a bit of a shame (knowing/seeing how much hasn't been reused) that it was a 'WP rebuild' rather than a 'Little Giant replica' - but that is always part of the preserve/conserve debate. To count that though, they did learn a good deal about maintenance and repair towards the end of its working life. There are also plans afoot to use the left overs and display them in some way in the 'interpretation' section of the Boston Lodge developments. So I'm not completely against the route that was taken.

I could start a separate topic in my workbench area to cover such modelling if it is of wider interest (and in terms of techniques/concepts etc a lot is relatively scale & gauge independant), but I am planning to divert back soon!

[PeteT]

Well, I appear to have moved house - but without the prospect of any housewarming type shenanigans I'm finding a bit of time to set up the workbench (not quite in the long term room, thanks to some damp from a lack of proper chimney flashing - who would expect that in North Wales!).

So the 3P chassis is progressing a bit, CSB anchors as per Will's suggestion - and High Level drilling jig row B. On this one I am going to stick with easily obtainable frame spacers - 15mm from Alan Gibson. I won't be using the half etched rebates to locate them, so will end up at 15.8mm over frames. I'll assess after it is built & painted whether to stick with this for future builds.

Before the frames come together, I need to finalise my pony truck plan. This is where my thoughts have been while the workbench has been out of commission. The etch as supplied is designed for a 2mm top hat bearing. The frame itself is pretty much to scale, which is perfect. I don't know what 00 builders will do about showing the springs between the frame and wheel, but not my problem!

Therefore a rigid bogie could be built as designed. My current thoughts are based on figure 59 on CLAG:
http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html#figure59


The difference I am contemplating, is rather than coil springs (finding some with a suitable spring rate, or making them repeatably puts me off) is to hang the rubbing plate from a springy beam, a bit like sprung W irons.

This sketch hopefully shows a cross section of the concept:

3P pony sprung rubbing plate.png

So as per figure 59, but the sprung rubbing plate on a springy beam rather than using coil springs. If the rubbing plate was a U shape then the front and rear could be tethered to stop it moving forward or backwards along the beam. Hanging from the CSB wire could work, but I'm thinking will work better as a separate springing beam between 2 fixed anchors, as with a sprung W iron, to allow for the beam to be at a different height. Also as there is less scope to extend the spacing between anchors (due to the bufferbeam) the weight taken by the pony can be altered by using a different gauge wire.

- green are fixed bits/tether across the mainframe
- red is the rubbing plate, hung off the (C)SB wire (dark blue) via anchors on the mainframe, and 1 anchor on the rubbing plate (all orange)
- light blue is then the rigid pony sat below.
- The red rubbing plate would be full width between the frame - with a solid bottom to this and solid top to the pony.
There should be room for 18mm between the anchors on the mainframe, compared with 21mm on W irons (but I would use a handrail knob or similar which is narrower than a typical W iron bearing carrier) so I think this should allow the springs to work as intended.

The only thing (of the 'known knowns') that I don't like about this, is with a fixed pony truck the whole frame pivots, and so there does need to be some allowance for this at the pony truck pivot point for twist. (Note that this issue also exists in the figure 59 setup, so presumably can be made to work well enough to have been previously documented).

I thought I'd post the concept before trying it, to see whether anyone has tried something similar before - or can think of any potential pitfalls.

I haven't mentioned side control, but don't see any issues implementing that alongside this concept - and doing it as a separate system rather than trying to calibrate both to work with one spring.