Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

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Horsetan
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Horsetan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:25 pm

PeteT wrote:... my MRJ is currently marooned with my dealer!....


Surprisingly I was able to walk into WHS Ealing just now and buy it off the shelf.....

...and it's got a letter from Mrs. Trellis in it!!
Last edited by Horsetan on Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Dave Franks
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:42 pm

As promised, photo of the start of the build.
Stanier 3P, 1.JPG
Stanier 3P, 1.JPG (106.29 KiB) Viewed 3936 times


Temporary wheelsets to check height and clearance, Ultrascales waiting.
CSB suspension, Mashima 1424 motor, Highlevel box and hornblocks.
Motor just fits with 1.5mm to spare to the underside of the firebox, lower frame spacer notched out to clear gearbox behind ashpan.

So now back to work, bufferstop packing that is.
Dave Franks

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45609
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby 45609 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:08 pm

Hi Dave,

Looks good. Please would you be willing to share your CSB lateral and height positions with us? What gauge spring wire have you selected and what overall mass do you have in mind for the loco?

Cheers...Morgan

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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:34 pm

Thanks Dave - looking good!

As per Morgan's request - I have scribbled both of the CLAG plots onto the drawing Mike supplied - and both will, from what I can see, need some modification to the rear cylinder cover/stretcher to clear. I also couldn't see a height which won't have something visible through at least one hole in the frames, though I didn't check which of these aren't obscured by wheels or brakegear anyway.

For interest I was looking at fittings, and this is the 247 LMS tank filler. On Mike's build he mentioned moulding one, and that it is similar to the Ivatt aside from the tank slope.

20200413_165517.jpg

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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:21 pm

Meanwhile, the DJH Ivatt/BR class 2 tank filler casting. Better shape. Probably available as spares. But could they be improved upon...

20200414_191754.jpg
20200414_191754.jpg (124.12 KiB) Viewed 3884 times

Dave Franks
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:27 pm

Had a good evening working on the 3P and got the footplate done and fitted the bufferbeams, the motor and gearbox seem a bit noisy so I might try another motor.
Stanier 3P, 2.JPG
Stanier 3P, 2.JPG (91.13 KiB) Viewed 3829 times


Morgan, I used the Highlevel ruler or jig to mark up the frames for drilling for the CSB anchors, I had to push the anchors about quite a bit so the figures are well out if you had to do a calulation. Height was 4.5 above the etched axle centres holes before cutting the hornguide slots and the top hole in the Highlevel tags was used. I'll try to lay out the dimensions:- I 16 o 13 I 19 o 23 I 11 o 15 I

As I say they are well out due to the various holes and spacers but it seems to balance out in my head. The wire will need to be 14 thou but the two trucks will be taking some weight too, the Fairburn tank I did works beautifully with the softer springing. As to the finished weight I usually do trials with weights to find a happy medium and in any case the loco is only going to haul 3 or 4 coaches so haulage won't be a problem.
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:21 pm

Got a bit more done tonight, glad Madam has got a new jigsaw puzzle that is testing her skills with a lot of dark areas and blue sky, this won't be a 'two day' puzzle me thinks.... Hopes.
Anyway, got the cylinders made up and the two trucks though only one has the 'fake axleboxes' as yet. There seems to be two types of spring hangers on the truck which can be seen from the front in photos, I have some suitable cast springs but I'll need to scratch the bottom brackets for the spring links.
P1010143.JPG


Tried a different motor only to discover that the noise was from the motor not having the torque reaction arm fitted and the motor was sitting loose on the frames, Doh!

Someone mentioned today whilst on the phone, how did you do the coupling rods as I hadn't mentioned them on here, well, I cheated and used Lanarkshire Models 8' x 8'6'' rods which are made to have a riveted joint.
Next time I'm going to try rivet pressing on the tank sides but I'll need to modify the die on my rivet punch as some of the rivets are very close together.

Cheers all and keep safe.

Dave.
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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:16 am

Good progress Dave - could you show more about the pony dummy springs please?

PAD covered on the 7mm build how the supplied coupling rods can be jointed, and I have managed this method with the 4mm versions:

20200416_073249.jpg


A bit of other progress over the course of last week, though I have sidelined it again now to finish other things! I'm not happy with one of the cab windows, but otherwise pleased with how its going together:

20200416_073312.jpg

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:56 am

You're doing well Pete, Tonight I was going to start the riveting with the bunker rear just in case I make a bxxls of it, it would be mostly hidden by a coach anyway....
How did you get on with the rivets along the bottom edge of the tank, they are very close together though they look fine to me.

Dave.
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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:00 pm

Thanks Dave,

Yes the rivets on the tank are pretty close together, but seem to have come out ok. Before this project I've always used used a London Road gravity rivetter - but the punch is really quite large. I gave it a tentative go when the etches first arrived, but it wasn't really going to fly. I had had in mind to get a posh rivetter for a while anyway so didnt need to do much to convince myself to splash out. I went with the Midland Railway centre option after reading the discussion on Mike Edge's RMWeb build thread. I think the GW version may have the option for a 2mm punch and anvil, which maybe would make a better job of the bottom edge rivets, but I'm pleased with how they came out.

I see your CSB plot is basically based on the 'alternative' plot on the CLAG page. By the looks of it the 'standard' plot would work without colliding with any holes in the frames - do you see a benefit in the longer one and thicker beam diameter?

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:39 pm

Hi Pete, yes it's the Midland Railway Centres' riveter I've got, very good, accurate and doesn't flex as some have mentioned with other riveters. I ground the side of the anvil to get the rivets closer and it seems to work, I used a larger anvil for the bigger 'rivets/bolts' on the smokebox saddle.
P1010154.JPG


The CSB plot I found was too close to a couple of things for my liking so I went with the larger plot but still had to move some anchors to avoid a couple of holes or spacers with slots cut into the bottom of the rear cylinder stretcher, I'm happy with the way it sits when two 80 gramme weights are placed on the ends. I'm thinking of no more than 300 grams finished weight as my Fairburn weights in at over 400 gram and can haul a house down, in fact it happily hauled the heaviest express on Retford much to Mr Jackson's amusement.


This afternoon I produced this:-
3P curly vents.JPG
3P curly vents.JPG (117.27 KiB) Viewed 3649 times


As I said in our email exchange I would need to cast a left and a right hand as the slope on the tank top dictates the angle.

Anyway tonight the bunker might be made up so onward and upward.

Dave.
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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:03 pm

Hi Dave - that is interesting to hear about with the anvils. I like what I have done with the rivetter so far, but can certainly see a benefit of a larger one and another 4mm one to reduce in size. I think the edge rivets have come out ok but would be better with a smaller tool.

Thanks - I'll bear that in mind re the CSB plots. I have got as far as cutting the frames from the fret and tacking them together, but not close inspection with the high level jig as yet.

Yes that vent looks lovely! While I can see that left and right handed vents would help by including the angle to stand them vertically - could they not be longer and go through the tank top? or is there some form of flange plate bolted onto the tank top?

I got my J39 rolling nicely last night (1 hornguide was at a bit of an angle...), so I'm planning to add pickups to its tender - alongside some 1P detailing - this weekend.

One thing I have done towards the 3P though is checked the tank beading. I saw on PADs 7mm build that he used 22ga half round brass wire from MetalClays4You, which measures in at 0.64mm x 0.31mm. I was half way through trying to find some 28ga (which doesn't appear to be available half round), when it occurred to me to refer back to the GA. The beading should be 2" x 0.5", so actually in 4mm we want 0.66mm x 0.17mm. So I have purchased 22ga, and comparing this to photos it looks right to me. I just need to work out whether to tack it down and thin it a bit first, or try and do so after it is in place. [whisper] or leave it 1" thick :shock: [/whisper].

20200417_175651.jpg

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Will L
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Will L » Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:38 pm

PeteT wrote:Thanks - I'll bear that in mind re the CSB plots. I have got as far as cutting the frames from the fret and tacking them together, but not close inspection with the high level jig as yet.


If you haven't finally made the fixed fulcrum point place I would suggest you might like to reconsider the CSB plot. Dave's are quite a long way from from a optimum plot. One that does work (there are always many possibilities) and isn't far from Dave's is (f=fixed fulcrum), a= axle - f 16 a 13.5 f 18.5 a 20 f 14 a 15. If that lines up with a hole in the chassis then I have a fix for that see this post.

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:30 am

Will L wrote:(f=fixed fulcrum), a= axle - f 16 a 13.5 f 18.5 a 20 f 14 a 15


Thanks Will - yes the 18.5mm spacing forward of the centre driver is fine, the one behind that centre driver at 20mm shows that height C is out, and A would be preferable to give some space away from the hole - however the 15mm behind the rear driver has a hole behind row A - but clear for B and C. So row B it is!

NB for anyone who hasn't seen or used one of the High Level jigs, the below photo is using the x.5mm side of the High Level jig, but rotated through 180 degrees gives the x.0mm lateral spacing. The three horizontal rows are for height options are labelled A, B and C and these tie up with wire hole options on the hornblock CSB adapter etches.

This photo has the jig held in place by eye, but it is supplied with 1/8" top hat bearings which are inserted through both the loco frames and the jig axle hole/slots - and I will locate it properly with these to drill.

20200417_221238.jpg

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:55 pm

Hi Pete, yes the curly pipe has a heavy flange on the tank so that is where the angle will be with a location spigot into the tank top. I see you got the half round wire from the same place I got mine, nice stuff and easy to apply with a small tip on the iron, I got the 24g wire though and iirc is 0.5 x 0.2, I think it looks good after painting. Beware though I think there may be a coating on it as sometimes in didn't solder so now I give it a slight rub with fine emery paper on the flat side and it takes the solder okay.
I assembled the bunker last night and started detailing it but made a mess of the gallonage plate which I'll need to refit 'square'...
I'll post a pic later.

Cheers,

Dave.
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PeteT
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:32 pm

Sounds good Dave - I look forward to the pic.

Yes, thanks for the tip - I had noticed that similar products are often coated for the jewellery market so it had crossed my mind that that could be the case.

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:52 pm

Okay here are some photos as promised.
3P bunker.JPG
3P bunker.JPG (119.63 KiB) Viewed 3491 times

3P bunker rear.JPG


The gallonage plate was soldered on from the back through a 1mm hole so no cleaning up needed, a trick I learned from one of the old guard in a previous club, now all passed away and we are the 'old guard'....

Still needs a bit of cleaning up but it's almost there.

Dave.
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:47 pm

Looking good. I see you've separated off the bunker unit from the side tanks. The tanks position is nicely defined by the curve in the footplate - does the cab floored the same for the bunker unit, or will it be a case of equalising the gap around the edge and judging by eye?

Nice idea for the capacity - presumably during painting that just gets wiped off after each coat of paint?

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:46 pm

A bit more progress over the last two evenings and madam still isn't finished the jigsaw puzzle, too many sky blue bits she says.
Bunker detail.JPG
Bunker detail.JPG (149.92 KiB) Viewed 3354 times

Looks a bit grubby in this photo but it isn't in reality, all the bits in brass are scratch made and the slacking hose is maybe a bit short.

Tank tops.JPG
Tank tops.JPG (133.19 KiB) Viewed 3353 times

Sidetanks detailed then fitted, bunker fitted and cab front and firebox tried in place. Boiler next but will need to be annealed before rolling I fear.

All going well so far Mike.

Dave.
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby 45609 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:04 pm

Hi Dave,

Looking very nice and making rapid progress too. Also thanks for the CSB info a few posts ago.

Cheers...Morgan

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:14 pm

Hi Morgan, thanks for the comments. The CSB plot might have been simpler if I had thought more about it but it is avoiding the various holes and slots plus the plunger pickups and the weighted chassis pushes through pointwork nicely.
I'll be working on the chassis again at the weekend so we'll see how that goes. I've got a commission to make a mould for someone so with the increase in orders to keep up with too I'm going to be busy for a few days.

Dave.
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby PeteT » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:18 pm

Thanks Dave - lovely effort on the bunker detail! Thanks for keeping us up to date.

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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Franks » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:58 pm

Thanks Pete.
Tonight I've just finished the flange for the master of the curly tank vent, I'll cast it in the two parts then make one piece submasters in right and left hand versions, all sizes have been estimated from photos so I hope they will look okay, the flange is wedge shaped in section and is designed to set the vent vertical on the slope of the tank.

3P tank vent.JPG
3P tank vent.JPG (99.44 KiB) Viewed 3264 times

3P tank vent 2.JPG
3P tank vent 2.JPG (69.74 KiB) Viewed 3264 times

Shown sitting loose on the never released Gibson 3P kit test etch as this is the one I was going to fit up with the tank vents, sandbox filler on the tank side and combined dome. I'll think about what other parts could be cast later.

Dave.
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ralphrobertson
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby ralphrobertson » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:20 am

I am watching this with a great deal of interest. In my possession I have had, for many years I might add, a set of parts which I inherited from various sources of a very early etch of a Stanier 2-6-2T. Now this must date back to the 1960s or thereabouts and I believe it was produced by the LMS Society. They certainly produced an etch for a Fowler tender which I have actually made but the thing about these early etches was that they were simply a half etch sheet, no cutouts so you had to cut out everything yourself. The photo below shows the model, which I didn't make, and the plate at the bottom shows the cab front and back which need the windows removing and shaping. Oh how we have come a long way in time since then.

20200425_100603.jpg


Someone also went to the trouble of making a set of wheels for this loco too, my thoughts are that these were mastered by Norman Whitnall of the Manchester club who had them cast and they were then turned by either him or Sid Stubbs. I am fortunate to have 2 sets of these so as I said I am following this thread with interest as I might have to buy one of these from Judith Edge and add it to the cupboard for the next lockdown!

20200425_100607.jpg


Ralph

Dave Holt
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Re: Stanier 3P - Judith Edge Kit

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:36 am

Ralph,
Looks almost like scratch building, but without the need to mark out the parts. There appears to be an ex-L&Y Class 27 lurking in the background. How about posting something about that?
Dave.


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