MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:07 pm

Thanks for the comments!

Peter I agree with John that the Wild Swan book is really what you want. I agree that buying a whole book of different drawings when all you want is one page can get ridiculous, but as this is specifically targetted with a whole variety of the GAs and showing all the differences between the types it is well worth the investment in my opinion.

As an aside, for anyone considering the Bachmann/Rumney combination Bachmann do currently have some spare bodies available direct:
https://bachmann-spares.co.uk/category/ ... johnson-1p

Thanks,
Pete

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Winander
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Winander » Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:19 pm

The postage to Norway from Wild Swan is more than the cost of the book, and I've seen one other similar cost. There is a new copy for sale on ebay and it may be worth asking the vendor what the charge would be.
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John Palmer
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby John Palmer » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:49 pm

Currently engaging in construction of a new bogie for the rebuild of my model of 58086, I reached the point of looking out a set of 3' 0" wheels (which will require some adaptation to suit them for split axle current collection). With 58086 the choice of wheel is straightforward enough, as it seems to have been fitted with the 9 spoke variety throughout its allocation to S&D territory.

I was struck, however, by the extent to which the style of carrying wheel might vary amongst the various Midland Railway 0-4-4T locomotives. The very early ones (6 Class) certainly included at least one member that rode on 8 spoke carrying wheels, but over time 9 spoke and 10 spoke variants were added to the mix. At first glance 9 spoke wheels seem to have been commonly fitted to 1532, 1832 and 1833 class engines, whilst 10 spoke wheels were common on 2228 class engines.

Beware! There are exceptions to these apparent trends. For example, 58086, the particular 2228 class engine in which I am interested, is a 9 spoke exception to the more usual 10 spoke wheels applied to this class, as, for some part of its career was 1425, which became 58088 and was another engine allocated to the Dorset around the time of Nationalisation. But the real facer is the 2228 class locomotive successively numbered 2229, 1382 and finally 58073. The Wild Swan Profile on these tanks shows this engine as 1382 after refit in 1928 with condensing equipment and Belpaire firebox, and it's clearly mounted on 10 spoke carrying wheels. But by the time of 58073's S&D sojourn in the 1950s its bogie was fitted instead with 9 spoke wheels, and it remained in this condition when photographed on 7 September 1956 at Barrow Road whilst awaiting scrapping.

My guess is that these 3' diameter carrying wheelsets were switched quite indiscriminately from engine to engine during their lifetimes, with little regard being paid to whether the number of spokes per wheel conformed to the original specification for the class. So it's not just a case of matching your wheel to the specification for the class, or even to a particular locomotive - with these Johnson tanks you need to know the design of carrying wheel fitted to it during the particular period you are representing.

davebradwell
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby davebradwell » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:57 am

You infer, John, that mixed sets of wheels didn't appear or at least not in photos. This might suggest that a change of wheels was related to an improvement - increased journal size for example - does the Wild Swan book give any clues? Normally wheel centres would be among the longest lasting parts of a loco. I was wondering if whole bogies were swapped routinely but think this unlikely. This lack of mixed wheels might just be Derby vanity of course.

DaveB

John Palmer
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby John Palmer » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:47 am

Dave, I was certainly on the lookout for a combination of 9 and 10 spoke wheels on the same bogie once I become aware of how many variations there were, but I've not yet encountered such a mix.

Unfortunately the Wild Swan Profile doesn't provide any clues that I've noticed, nor does the 'Design Details Analysed' chapter in 'Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives Vol 1'. The Profile does, however, indicate that 10 spoke bogie wheels were specified for the 2228 class engines, suggesting that the 9 spoked wheelsets I have encountered on engines this class must have come from an earlier design. In turn this leads me to think that the bogie wheelsets were interchangeable between 2228 class engines and those of earlier classes. The GA drawings include a limited range of dimensions for bogie components, but they don't help much as there's apparently no consistency as to what dimensions were applied - for example the 1833 class GA shows a bogie wheelset journal diameter of 5½", but there's no corresponding dimension on the GA for the 2228 class.

I too wondered whether there might have been a routine swapping of bogies and came to the same conclusion as you. Following the reasoning set out above, I did think it likely that Derby had standardised the journal design for 3' diameter bogie wheelsets, making it possible to maintain a stock of spare wheelsets that could be swapped into a bogie as circumstances required, in the same manner as spare boilers were held available. If so, could it be that the rate of wear on leading and trailing bogie wheelsets was sufficiently similar that both would be swapped out for re-profiling at the same time, increasing the likelihood that the replacement wheelsets would be a pair similar to each other?

andrewnummelin
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby andrewnummelin » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:16 am

If there were significant differences in weights between wheels with different numbers of spokes it may have been considered bad engineering practice to have an “unbalanced” bogie. Would an engineer like to comment?
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Andrew Nummelin

peterbkloss
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby peterbkloss » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:17 am

John Palmer wrote:I really don't think there's a substitute for the GA drawings set out in 'Midland Engines No.1 1833 and 2228 Class Bogie Passenger Tanks', published by Wild Swan. However, the attached .pdf drawing may be of some assistance in illustrating the differences between these two classes. It's derived from my rough and ready drawings for re-design of my 2228 class to overcome the deficiencies in my original build, but with dimensions derived from the GA drawings in the Wild Swan profile. The 2228s are always distinguishable from earlier engines when seen from the front by reason of the smokebox door locking ring being totally exposed - on earlier engines it is partially concealed by the casing over the valve chest. But the differences really become apparent in the area of the cab, as I think the attached drawings show.


Thank you so much for this, a real help

kind regards, Peter Kloss

Stephan.wintner
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Stephan.wintner » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:47 am

andrewnummelin wrote:If there were significant differences in weights between wheels with different numbers of spokes it may have been considered bad engineering practice to have an “unbalanced” bogie. Would an engineer like to comment?


Engineer here. Aircraft engines are a bit different, but I'd think the springs and equalization would be laid out with a particular weight in mind. Altering that weight wouldn't be ideal. (More precisely, the idea of controlling sprung mass and dynamics suggests certain spring rates to control the unsprung masses and keep them pressed down to the rail, and not hopping along due to side rod loads, etc. )

That said, I'd be surprised if a 9 and 10 spoke wheel would make a difference. I'd be suspecting some fastidious soul on the shop might object to it on aesthetic grounds though.

Stephan

John Palmer
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby John Palmer » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:06 am

Further reading of the Wild Swan Profile has been instructive, as it tells us that, whilst 10 spoke wheels were specified at the outset for the 2228 class engines, the position was more complex with the 1833s. The 1833 class was composed of two 'sub classes': class K comprising 20 locomotives built by Dübs and class P consisting of 10 locomotives constructed by Neilsons. The original specification provided for 9 spoke bogie wheels, and this was applied to the 20 Dübs-built locomotives. However, the Midland's Chief Draughtsman T.G.Iveson changed the specification for the 10 Neilson locomotives, requiring these to be built with 10 spoke bogie wheels. Can't speak for the earlier 1252 class bogie tank engines, but a photograph of one shows it fitted with 9 spoke bogie wheels, perhaps suggesting that the 10 spoke wheel was in some way regarded as an improvement.

It seems common for we modelmakers to pivot our 0-4-4Ts' bogies on swing arms, but not so on the full-size Johnson tanks. On these, provision was made for no more than ¾" lateral movement of the bogie framework relative to the fixed, centrally mounted casting around which the bogie pivoted. The unsprung weight of the rear of the locomotive was transmitted to the bogie via this casting/pivot, and the only springing of this weight was by means of the inverted 3' 2" long 17-plate leaf springs mounted inside each of the bogie sideframes (1833 class). The ends of each of these springs were attached to an equalising beam, the extremities of which then carried the load directly to cups mounted atop the bogie wheelset axleboxes. No engineer I, but that suggests to me that, disregarding dynamic loading variations, the bogie wheelsets were each carrying an equal share of the weight of the locomotive that was not being carried by the driving wheelsets. On the 2228 class engines, the nominal weight distribution was:

Leading driving wheelset: 15t 10cwt
Trailing driving wheelset: 16t 10cwt
Bogie: 21t 4cwt 2qtrs

i.e. 10t 12cwt 1 qtr per bogie wheelset, assuming an equal static loading of each. So far as I can see, it would make little difference whether the bogie wheelsets in question were 9 or 10 spoked as they each represented an unsprung mass, albeit one varying slightly in weight according to the number of spokes.

Judging by the number of occasions on which I've seen wagons with a mix of 3-hole and spoked wheels, wagon works had no time for aesthetes!

John Palmer
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby John Palmer » Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:28 pm

John Palmer wrote:Dave, I was certainly on the lookout for a combination of 9 and 10 spoke wheels on the same bogie once I become aware of how many variations there were, but I've not yet encountered such a mix.

But now I have - and, to my suprise, I've found it on the particular Johnson Bogie Tank on which my own interest centres: 58086! Here is an extract from the late John Madeley's side-on shot of this locomotive taken in the early 1950s, at which time she carried 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on her tank sides and 'mixed traffic' lining:
Bogie close up 58086.jpg
As can clearly be seen, both r/h bogie wheels are of the 9-spoke variety.

Contrast this picture with the series of photographs taken by Dick Riley which show the locomotive following her transfer to Bath for storage in about May 1959. These can be found at https://www.transporttreasury.com/p931843976, with RCR13717 showing the off side whilst RCR13723 shows the near. The locomotive now carries her final insignia with the early pattern lion-on-wheel totem, but of greater note is the fact that whilst the trailing wheelset in the bogie still has 9-spoked wheels, the wheels in the leading set now have 10 spokes. It would appear from this that the c. three foot diameter wheelsets manufactured for the various Johnson bogie tank classes were of sufficiently standardised dimensions to permit indiscriminate substitution of replacement wheelsets without regard to design differences such as the number of spokes per wheel. This reinforces my conviction that accurate representation of an engine of this type requires knowledge of the particular wheelsets appropriate for an individual locomotive during the particular period being represented.

Fortunately for me, I am planning to represent 58086 in her 'early BR' incarnation as shown in the Madeley picture, for which I already have in stock suitable 9 spoke wheels.
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RAO
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby RAO » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:19 pm

I'm so please that you are ALL sorting out 58086 before I start building mine.

peterbkloss
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby peterbkloss » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:05 pm

likewise - sad about the mixed bogie wheelset I was hoping to model it as for 1959 :-( might have to ignore this detail (please don't shoot) another 'assumption' down the drain

peterbkloss
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby peterbkloss » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:56 pm

To add to my previous hasty and off the cuff reply, I tracked down the Wild Swan profile of the 1833 and 2228 tanks and bought a copy, though I probably won't get it till after Christmas. I really will have to source a 10 spoke wheel set, thank you John Palmer for the sleuthing (and also providing that PDF 'differences' drawing). I've also bought a copy of the transport treasury listed photo of 58086 in the Bath GP shed scrap line, the RHS, views of the LHS are almost common as muck, I have a couple in my book collection! Particularly useful as I had also not realised before the differences to the steam brake cylinder placing and lever before seeing this thread.

John Palmer
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby John Palmer » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:58 pm

peterbkloss wrote:I really will have to source a 10 spoke wheel set
But look forward to the pleasure you can take in correcting the know-it-alls who criticise your mix of bogie wheelsets!

I'd like to discover when 58086 ceased to be in gainful employment. Her 1960 withdrawal date is somewhat misleading, given that her transfer to Bath in 1959 seems to have been for storage only, and that she was probably never returned to steam after her arrival there. Recently I came across a photograph showing her at the head of an Up passenger service following arrival at Highbridge. The print had been annotated with details of the camera settings for the exposure, and the care with which this had been done inclined me to think that attribution to the picture of the June 1958 date also noted on it was likely to be accurate. That gives some confidence that the locomotive remained in active service for at least part of the 1958 Summer timetable's currency, but it would be satisfying to find out exactly when retirement actually occurred. Although 1960 is given as her official withdrawal date, I have always understood 58086 to have been outlasted in active service by 58065 on the Rolleston Jc-Southwell line.


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