MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

trustytrev
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby trustytrev » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:04 pm

Hello,
Not the same loco type but a good view for the detail.
Photo-0071.jpg

trustytrev. :)

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:40 pm

Yes, thanks for that - I have a similar view of those on a 1P. The difficult bit is to make sure it looks good at a couple of feet away, rather than getting too caught up on the view from 2 inches away!

Dave Holt
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:51 am

I had some custom etches done by Rumney for the tank straps on my BR STd and Ivatt class 2 tanks, which made up quite nicely See attached cruel enlargement).
Std_2_042.JPG

Although this type of arrangement was common to many LMS and BR Standard tank locos, the lengths of the restraining link varies from class to class and, on taper boiler locos, along each tank. This variation makes it difficult to produce standard etched parts.
Dave.

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:59 pm

I don't think the style of rear lamp irons on the 1Ps is particularly rare, but it is not directly catered for by either the Masokits or Mainly Trains etches. However they weren't difficult to knock u. I did use some strips from the MT etch, but didn't necessarily need to.

20200321_163418.jpg


20200321_163358.jpg
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For these to be fitted I had to fill and redrill the etched location holes in the Craftsman etch. Partly as the holes were several times larger than required, but also as 3 of the 4 were in the wrong place - top one too high, outer ones too far inboard.

Also fitted at this stage were vacuum (train and PP) and steam heat pipes. I'm based in September, so steam heat pipes would have just about been refitted from what I understand. The protection bracket above 1 of the vac pipes also needed fabricating.

Also shown are the rear spectacle plates. Surrounds are from Mainly Trains. The protection bars arent quite the right shape, and the holes would have been easier to drill in the right place with more forward planning to the need for these - but they haven't come out too badly, and hopefully I will consider such things earlier on in the project in future!

20200329_181428.jpg


20200329_181443.jpg


Following discussion on RMWeb on the impending Bachmann model regarding the chimney - I reassessed the Craftsman one. It looked nice, but not for the prototype I'm modelling. I ordered a few chimneys from Alan Gibson (another hit of no S4N, but the others have gone in the bits box to mature) and 4M614 looks about right with the right dimensions. Incidentally 4M615 is about the same as that provided by Craftsman.

I added an inner sleeve and central rod so that it will plug into the same hole in the top of the smokebox.

20200321_170451.jpg
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Lastly, while I have previously posted a photo before of the roof clipped in place, this is the underside with an extra bit of weight glued on.

20200329_181414.jpg

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Sun May 31, 2020 7:16 pm

So in amongst a bit of cycling, the last few weekends have been spent trying to get the 1P ready for the paintshops. As with all good projects - a few good steps forward, before you work out something is wrong and needs a bit of backtracking.

The push pull apparatus is based on the alan Gibson white metal castings. A new wrapper has been formed, and some pipework added (control pipe yet to be added). As shown here, the control rod between the two parts will sit vertically...

20200531_194846.jpg


The ejector uses two parts of the Craftsman white metal lump, alongside several bits of rod, tube and fuse wire. A spare Rumney models brake link is used for the diamond shaped front. All in all rather pleasing.

20200509_112320.jpg


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The following photo is with it still in separate sub sections, I am aware the pipework each side if the ejector isn't in a straight line. There is also 1 more pipe still to add.

20200531_142114.jpg


The handbrake is a spare Dave Bradwell casting, designed to control a tender water scoop. This has a new bit of brass for its base with some rivets embossed. The front cylinder cover has been added and raised. The sides need tidying up, and more rivets adding (though I currently plan to do this with archers after priming). I haven't specifically taken photos of either of these bits, but the covers can be seen in corners of others.

Returning to the push pull equipment, the lower cylinder is offset out from the outside of the splashers on 58066. This doesn't necessarily seem to be the location on all 1Ps, some manage to line up with the splasher - and it doesn't appear to be as clear cut as a 1833/2028 difference. Having got the location looking right in relation to the splasher, the control rod will be nothing like vertical... so back to the drawings to assess what is out.

This determined that the main splashers should measure 22.66mm, and 26.66mm over the coupling rod boss clearance section. I had used the Craftsman castings as is, lining them up with the inside of the footplate. They are 2 of the 3 castings I have used as supplied (the third being the dome) so I should have known something may have been amiss at the time. These measure 26.7mm over main and 30mm over rod bosses.

I recall wondering at the time whether the white metal castings may be too thick, but taking a look at the rod boss section decided it looked like a reasonable chunk of hard work to do anything else, so used them as is, and moved on. Note to self, this has come back to bite!

20200531_142229.jpg


20200531_142304.jpg


Options I'll be mulling over this week:
1. Leave the splashers as they are, move the lower push-pull cylinder in line with control valve. Wrong for this 1P, though others did have that setup. Obviously the quickest route forward...
edit - 1.5! remove some from rear of splashers, and see if they will sit inboard without clouting the wheels...
2. Assess Brassmasters 4F splashers I have lurking. I used the 3F ones with success, they look the part, and all being 5'3" wheels should nominally be the same - yet 3Fs and 4Fs don't have the rod boss section, so presumably the footplate is higher on those so as not to need that section, and so the splashers will be smaller. If they are ok, these could potentially reuse part of the castings for that front section.
3. As 2, but with scratch built main splashers if the Brassmasters ones aren't quite right. Beading could be fun...
4. As 3, but etched - which would make forming a uniform curve easier, and make the beading easier.

Any replacement is likely to still be marginally over scale, but should be close enough to allow the location of the lower cylinder to look right, at the same time as the control rod being vertical.

All jolly good fun...

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:05 pm

Looking at the more closely, option 1.5 should be a goer. I lined up the inner edge with the inside edge of the foot plate, but that does leave the etched footplate underhanging. Hopefully they will let go without dislodging too much else.

On the bright side, this will allow me to make a neater, yet still robust, attachment for the oil pots on the tops - clouds & linings.

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:05 pm

On the home straight - splashers removed, narrowed, and reseated - and all other bits and bobs now slotting in around them.

The only bits I haven't fully got my head around are a few extras on the bufferbeam. They are evidently push pull (ok, motor train) related - but the 1P appears to be a top and bottom bracket with an unrelated round grab handle - while the Ivatts had the same too brackets, but no handle, and some electrical wiring. Is what looks like a handle on the 1P the same wiring loom as the Ivatt, just twiddled up? The coaches quite clearly* have a 2nd set of electrical cables which duplicates the standard set on the end of LMS coaches - and the lower bufferbeam brackets does look abut the same as a holster, but what I don't get is that the coaches have an obvious plug sat in the holster when not loomed between carriages. These look empty, unless that is to do with the angle?

1P
20200607_202248.jpg


Ivatt
Ivatt tank PP bufferbeam.JPG
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I presume it is a direct mirror on the rear bufferbeam? It looks like it, but the photos I have are from angles where obstructions like buffers get in the way so only 99% sure.

I think I mainly understand what is going on (just about enough to model it) - but not 100 % (ie why the holster looks empty).

edited to add - the clearly* is due to having a few photos at Oxenhope of the mid day train, which was generally Fairburn 2-6-4 hauled and in none PP mode, while the push pull set of the day trundled down to Bradford FS and back to charge the batteries. These photos are part way through run round, so show the end of the coach quite well.

Dave Holt
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:38 pm

Peter,
I'm not an expert on the 1 P's and the photo is rather grainy, but to me it looks like the cable is clipped to the buffer beam blow and level with the RH end of the upper connector block bracket. It then bulges out from the beam and snakes right-left to the plug which I think is just visible as a dark area in the holster. In other words, exactly as on the Ivatt 2-6-2.
I can't find any decent photos of the back of an Ivatt tank, but the Fowler and BR Standard tanks were definitely symmetrical, front and back, in terms of the electrical connection (left side on loco, or right as you look at it).
Dave.

PhilipT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PhilipT » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:49 am

The extra electrics, probably also including the holster, are for the engine bell communication from the driving trailer which replaced a Heath-Robinson mechanical arrangement of wires which on a 1P had a guide tube on top of the cab. Many coaches acquired these extra cable connections which were similar, if not identical to the electric lighting control cables, so the coaches had two in each side. The extra set were labelled "ENGINE BELL" on the coaches and were painted a different colour (red? - I haven't seen a colour photo**). Whilst I said that many coaches acquired them (don't know dates), equally, many did not. Furthermore, I don't know how many locos had the bell arrangement.

** Just found a photo on p110 of Vol 1 of Bradford's Railways in Colour and yes, the cylindrical boxes mounted on the coach end were red - the cables were not. The connectors are not visible - they're inside the holsters - but I would guess that they too were red.

Phil Tattershall

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:10 pm

Thanks both, that helps explain what is going on in the murk - and shouldn't be too hard to reproduce.

Phil, that book is one not (yet) in my library - but I did buy this photo from colourrail - is it the same one by any chance?
https://colourrail.co.uk/api/image/medi ... e7207e5d23
(hopefully that link works, otherwise searching colourrail for Oxenhope should bring it up).

It isn't particularly clear in the small thumbnail, but does agree with what you describe colour wise - though I don't recall any labelling alongside. I'll go and find it...

PhilipT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PhilipT » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:37 pm

Yep, that's the one. There's also a cylinder on the coach high up to the lhs of the gangway - I've no idea what it was for.

Phil

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:11 pm

I believe the cylinder is a fire extinguisher, fitted in the mid 1950s. These were mentioned on the RMWeb thread covering the Bachmann portholes (which include them):

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... le-review/

The question raised on the RMW thread was whether they should have them in crimson and cream, as per the original set of Bachmann releases. It doesn't look like that was categorically answered - nor whether it was a univeral fitment (or how quickly applied).

Pete

edited to add, the only other useful google link from 'LMS coach fire extinguisher' brings up another RMW thread started by Morgan. On there Larry assumes them to be coincidental with the higher end step removal, and put it at 60-65 - but that is wrong from this evidence on the Worth Valley.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... t-is-this/

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BryanJohnson
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby BryanJohnson » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:31 pm

If it helps anyone, the Oxenhope photo is also included on page 56 of Ian Allan's BR Steam in Colour 1948-1968 book by Colin Boocock.

PhilipT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PhilipT » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:50 am

PeteT wrote:I believe the cylinder is a fire extinguisher, fitted in the mid 1950s.

On there Larry assumes them to be coincidental with the higher end step removal, and put it at 60-65 - but that is wrong from this evidence on the Worth Valley.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... t-is-this/


The two D1999 coaches were motor fitted at Wolverton with a date (presumably into service) of 4 Feb 1956 so that may be the date of fire extinguisher installation.

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:52 pm

It was a bit of dilemma which fragile bits are going to be more robust (or less likely to be damaged or desoldered) - but I chose to do the bufferbeam detailing before the lamp irons. This will make cleaning up after the lamp irons trickier, but hopefully not impossible.

Some 1mm strip, 5A fuse wire, 10A fuse wire, and 0.7/0.5mm tubing has most of the push pull equipment added to the front bufferbeam. I am thinking of just using the comet casting for the holster and plug. What was confusing me in a lot of photos was that the holsters evidently werent a very tight fit, so a lot of the time the wire goes through it with the plug dangling out of the bottom (or having not been put back in the holster in the first place).

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So, a bit more cleaning up, add the plug - and then repeat for the rear bufferbeam...

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:31 pm

Looking good Pate, I've got all this to look forwards too.

Keep up the progress but above all Keep Safe.

Dave

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Paul Willis
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:47 pm

PeteT wrote:It was a bit of dilemma which fragile bits are going to be more robust (or less likely to be damaged or desoldered) - but I chose to do the bufferbeam detailing before the lamp irons. This will make cleaning up after the lamp irons trickier, but hopefully not impossible.


I had exactly the same dilemma with my 48xx body.

In my case, the lamp irons went on first!

All glued, as soldering to a plastic body never ends well. But I'd much rather the whole thing was in brass. This messing around with RTR bodies isn't really to my tatses.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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PeteT
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Re: MR 1P 0-4-4T detailing

Postby PeteT » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:05 pm

Thanks both,

Funnily enough Paul that thought crossed my mind, in that it has all gone together nicely here - but may be a different story when I get to duplicating it for the Ivatt 2MT! Anyway, with that thought but back in the problem space of future me, I have been making progress with the set for the back.

I have also decided (ish) to make the holster. I have some 2x2mm brass section, which I have for LMS coach hooded vents as per an MJT article - filing down to 2x1mm U section. I did the same for this and it looks right, so now just need to fabricate the plug.

I went with the 2x1 as that sizes up about the same as the Comet casting. However, it blatantly isnt the same size as the hooded vents:
https://www.svrwiki.com/LMS_2886_Six-wh ... ater_32919)#/media/File:LMS_2886_20150322.jpg
Maybe 1.5mm would have been better - but I don't have any - so will probably go with the 2mm, but will reassess against the casting - that would be easier to fettle down in size if required.


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