LMS D1735 Brake Third

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Serjt-Dave
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LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:52 pm

Hi All. I've been working on a Comet Kit of a LMS D1735 Brake Third. This is the first coach kit I've built for well over twenty years and it was a bit of a learning curve trying to remember how I used to build and improve the basic kit. One thing I did remember straight off was to replace the bogie frames. In the past I used the Pendleton/Mitchell bogies. I like their smoothness and running but found them fiddly and lacking in detail, so I thought I would try Bill Bedford bogies. They went together well and ran nice and smoothly but the issue came when it was time to fit the cosmetic bogie frames. You have the thin the Comet white metal otherwise the bogie will be too wide. Whilst trying to get a max width of about 7' the W iron plate basically became so thin it disappeared. The BB bogies only have bearing guides which are just straight bar either side of the bearing, where's the P/M bogies do have W irons so I went back to using the P/M bogies, which was a shame as I fancied trying out the BB ones. I'll have to see if I can solder some triangular bits of brass to the bearing guides to make them look more like W irons. The next ball ache the BB bogies had a much bigger pivot bolt and holes so I had the fill these in on the underframe and re-drill them.

Moving onto the underframe I built the main structure as per the instructions. I found the trussing a bit flimsy. I then remembered that I used to replace it with angle iron {brass not iron} or solder the angle iron to the etched trussing. As this was already built up I decided to leave as is and the next coach I would add the replacement trussing to that. However whilst attaching the other bits and pieces the flimsy trussing kept getting bent out of shape. So I then redecided to add the angle iron to the trussing. Got it all done and it looked a treat. Feeling quite pleased with myself I thought I would beef up the cross members and whilst checking some images I then realised I had soldered the angle iron the wrong way round. After using that word {plus a lot worst words as well} that I'm not allowed to use on this forum I set about removing all the angle iron and re-soldering the correct way round. Sadly it didn't solder back as well as it did the first time. Next was to fit out the underframe with the brake equipment plus all the other bits and bobs. This all went fairly smoothly the only thing I'm not really happy with {mainly I don't know if this is correct} is the regulator box. The casting is very basic to which I added some styrene to improve it {ish}. It was more of how it attached to the underframe. The image I was using as reference showed it attached directly to the underframe via some sort of clamps at the back of the regulator box, however this was of a different type of LMS coach. Where's looking at images of the similar coaches it looks like the regulator box sat on a small shelf. I've tried to replicate this but I'm not totally convinced with what I've done.

I added all the buffer bean details etc got it all looking nice but for got that I had to fit S&W couplings. Luckily as the brake pipe came through the buffer beam I only had the file the mounting stub flush with the back of the buffer beam, where the steam pipe and it's hanging chain had to be removed and fixed to the S&W supporting plate.

The coach body is finished other than having the interior fitted, then a bloody good clean up and off to the paintshop.
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Mike Garwood
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Mike Garwood » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm

I'm impressed that you've put the safety straps into the bogies for the brakes. The overly thick side frames have been a problem for ages. I wish there were 3D printed ones that would glue to Bills excellent frames. You couldn't have used a washer to reduce the hole diameter on Bills bogie? I'm making the assumption that this is the part of the bogie that allows you to attach to the coach. I still use the Comet brass plates to attach my bogies to the coach. C59: Carriage Bogie Rubbing Plates (pair).

Really nice build by the way.

Underfame.jpg


Stay safe

Mike

ralphrobertson
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby ralphrobertson » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:52 pm

Dave, if you are looking for a decent (and accurate) LMS coach underframe take a look at my Palatine Models website. I designed an underframe for both 57ft and 60ft LMS coaches and you can choose between a rivetted or welded underframe. No holes in the floor either and they build up with all angles properly formed. http://www.palatinemodels.co.uk

I used LMS drawings in York Museum when preparing the artwork for these and it includes a shelf for the regulator box.

Ralph

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:33 pm

Thanks Mike. Insanity runs deep in my family, I do these stupid things. LOL. This is one of the problems with the Pendleton/Mitchell bogies they are very open and so there's nothing to attach things to. I added the two bits of flat scrap brass to hang the safety loops to. There is also a larger safety loop that sits in the centre of the bogie but I decided to leave this off as it was getting very tight for space. You only can really see it looking from the end of the coach. The BB bogies have more framing available to be able add things to. The pivot bolts for the bogies I used what was supplied with the coach kit and were quite chunky. So I opened out the BB ones first but as the pivot bolts were quite short I had to replace them with longer and thinner ones when I went over to use the P/M bogies. The P/M bogies use the pivot bolt as a way of adjusting the ride height by a nut and a flat plate that when turned can go up or down adjusting the ride height. Also the flat plate is the support for the secondary springing as well.

Your coach is coming on nicely, I do like busy underframes. Looking forwards to seeing it finished.

Hi Ralph. I only discovered your underframes after I had already started this one. They do look good. But fear not I've at least two more 57' ones to do plus I do like the "Porthole" coaches so will need some 60' underframes.

All Best and Keep Safe

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PeteT
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby PeteT » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:09 pm

Looking good Dave,

I can vouch for Ralph's underframes too - though as they are aimed at the Slattocks requirements they don't cover 50' (or 62', or 68') options. 50' could be created easily enough around a 57' base.

I have a few on the back burner, I'm trying not to prioritise them at present as there isnt much use for them on a shed layout... but there are other peoples train sets to use them on so I expect to make a bit of progress on them in amongst.

Is the body detailing as per the Comet suggestions or have you embellished here too?

Cheers,
Pete

ralphrobertson
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:19 am

they don't cover 50' (or 62', or 68') options. 50' could be created easily enough around a 57' base.


I did actually take photos of the 50ft, 57ft, 60ft, 62ft and 68ft underframes whilst I was at York so if I ever need one I will draw up an underframe to add to my collection. If there is sufficient interest I could be persuaded, you need to let me know and I can start a list going.

Ralph

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Guy Rixon
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:31 am

Mike Garwood wrote:The overly thick side frames have been a problem for ages. I wish there were 3D printed ones that would glue to Bills excellent frames.


What would the spec be here? Would people want a complete, printed side, or just the fittings to attach to a brass side?

In my experience, a print can incorporate a flat back-plate down to about 0.6 mm thickness; is it thin enough? Below that, the print bureaux won't touch it and home prints break too easily. A 0.5 mm plate done in Shapeways resin will tend to curl up, but that's OK if it's bonded to a rigid frame.

davebradwell
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby davebradwell » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:20 pm

It doesn't seem you'll ever achieve scale width because even axleguards at 23.5 spacing for a std brg is just wider than prototype's 5ft 9in. I'm just re-doing the 9ft bogie etch and it seems printing a channel solebar with springs and axleboxes would be your best bet although bolster detail gets complicated. Bear in mind the channel is only 1/2" thick. I've made the axleguards the correct shape and squeezed in 2 triangular brake stretchers for the ends and the outer safety loops attach to the headstocks so no problem there but filling in the middle detail just adds too much brass. I think the steps are more useful.

Didn't 5522 produce a fancy LMS bogie along the lines you've been discussing? Just spotted some in Stephen Williams' books.

DaveB

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PeteT
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby PeteT » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:49 pm

ralphrobertson wrote:I did actually take photos of the 50ft, 57ft, 60ft, 62ft and 68ft underframes whilst I was at York so if I ever need one I will draw up an underframe to add to my collection. If there is sufficient interest I could be persuaded, you need to let me know and I can start a list going.


Thanks Ralph - I doubt my individual requirements would make them worthwhile, but as you say there may be wider interest. I'd probably be looking at ~4 x 50' and 1 x 68'.

Two others I'm looking at sooner rather than later are the D1715 50' and D1730 57' on Met Cam underframes. Do you know whether drawings for these were in York too? I did try asking through the met cam archives mid last year, but their lists aren't computerised so they couldn't tell me what they do have while they were working from home - let alone contemplate access to it.

Rdunning
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Rdunning » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:04 pm

On the subject of bogies, I hope he won't mind if I say that Ralph Robertson has undersold himself in omitting to mention the excellent Palatine Models 9' LMS bogies which use Dick Petter's twin torsion bar principle. They are relatively simple to assemble and robust and reliable in operation.
Definitely worth a look if you've got more LMS vehicles to make Dave.

Richard

ralphrobertson
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:44 pm

Thanks Ralph - I doubt my individual requirements would make them worthwhile, but as you say there may be wider interest. I'd probably be looking at ~4 x 50' and 1 x 68'.

Two others I'm looking at sooner rather than later are the D1715 50' and D1730 57' on Met Cam underframes. Do you know whether drawings for these were in York too? I did try asking through the met cam archives mid last year, but their lists aren't computerised so they couldn't tell me what they do have while they were working from home - let alone contemplate access to it.


At the risk of hijacking Dave's thread I will just post a quick update here, if there is more interest I will start a separate thread elsewhere.

I have photos of a drawing for a Sep 1935 rivetted underframe for a 50ft Kitchen car and the drawing in York for the 68ft underframe was in very poor condition - it was on a linen sheet and all the ink was flaking off. It was from July 1929 and the dimensions are just about readable. On Slattocks we only have a need for 2 of these Restaurant Cars and we already have one built so unless there is a huge demand it is not likely to get drawn up - unless you convince me otherwise!

Thanks for the plug Richard for the bogies.

Ralph

ralphrobertson
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:49 pm

Forgot to mention for PeteT, I found a complete list of the York collection of carriage drawings on the NRM website. They list the Wolverton and Derby collections and although it is a slog to go through to find what you are interested in there are a lot of drawings on there. Not sure what the situation is right now but back in September 2013 when I went you could select drawings you wanted to look at in advance and when you turned up they were all waiting for you. Then if you wanted to see any more you completed a slip and they sent off for them (I believe they were in a separate building) and 30 mins or so later they arrived for me to look at. No issue with taking photos of the drawings, I simply took multiple shots and worked out the bits I needed from them.

Ralph

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Mike Garwood
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Mike Garwood » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:00 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:
Mike Garwood wrote:The overly thick side frames have been a problem for ages. I wish there were 3D printed ones that would glue to Bills excellent frames.


What would the spec be here? Would people want a complete, printed side, or just the fittings to attach to a brass side?

In my experience, a print can incorporate a flat back-plate down to about 0.6 mm thickness; is it thin enough? Below that, the print bureaux won't touch it and home prints break too easily. A 0.5 mm plate done in Shapeways resin will tend to curl up, but that's OK if it's bonded to a rigid frame.


To be honest Guy I don't have the first idea of 3D printing, what works and what doesn't. But 0.6mm sounds a heck of a lot better than the current offerings. I'm still trying to learn Fusion 360, but with personal circumstances as they are, time is limited to my engines and coaches. But that will change.

Mike

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Paul Willis
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:10 pm

davebradwell wrote:Didn't 5522 produce a fancy LMS bogie along the lines you've been discussing? Just spotted some in Stephen Williams' books.

DaveB


Got a reference Dave? I can have a look and see what is on the phototools that I have.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Paul Willis
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:35 pm

Paul Willis wrote:
davebradwell wrote:Didn't 5522 produce a fancy LMS bogie along the lines you've been discussing? Just spotted some in Stephen Williams' books.

DaveB


Got a reference Dave? I can have a look and see what is on the phototools that I have.

Cheers
Paul


As you were - I realise I have a table that I can cross-refer the 5522 range of parts to LMS diagram numbers. The D1735 uses the B603, which are these:

IMG_8667 (Large).JPG


IMG_8666 (Large).JPG




I must find time to stick them on the 5522 website... I wouldn't describe them as fancy, but they do work:

Built as welded:

IMG_8669.JPG


Built as riveted:

IMG_6292 (Large).JPG


This is them from underneath. A slightly different arrangement of safety loops I think:

IMG_7624 (Large).JPG


And this is them on the 5522 50' underframe:

IMG_7627 (Large).JPG


If anyone would like to know more, please drop me an email.

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:33 pm

Hi All, you lot have been quite busy on this thread. I forgot to click on the "keep me notified button" so I've only seen your replies today. Apologies for not replying sooner. I'll respond once I've read all the replies.

Anyway in the mean time I've all but finished the coach other then internal details in the Guard van, things like the hand brake, fire extinguisher etc. Should have this all done in a day or so and then off the the paintshop. I did put the coach through it's paces on my layout and when the ride height and wobble were sorted it preformed very well. The only thing it failed on was the S&W coupling fouled the bogie and couldn't be operated. I will correct this by making the coupling hook/paddle shorter and add some weight to act as counter balance. The only time the coach derailed was when said S&W coupling fell off whilst it was trundling round the layout.

I'm looking forward to painting this as it will be in LMS crimson lake and with the simple and final LMS lining.

Keep Safe

Dave
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Mike Garwood
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:28 pm

Dave

That looks brilliant! What is the plastic that you've got around the window openings for? Or is that some sort of optical illusion I'm seeing on the pics...

Mike

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:34 pm

Thanks Mike. The plastic what your are seeing around the windows is the internal lining for the coach sides. What I do is frame around the windows {except the droplights} and then glue thin plastic sheet over the entire side of the coach. You then cut away the plastic from the window openings. You then have slots which you can slide clear plastic in for the windows. For the droplights you just have to cut the clear plastic to the size of the drop light surrounds and glue into place. The whole process is quite tedious and is easier to do before you assemble the coach body together, and you have to have a removable roof. When I started the coach body I initially was going to do this but then decided not to bother but after I had got the sides and ends together I went back to plan A but then it was too late for marking out the plastic for the coach sides. So I had the fun of putting in the internal wall side and cutting out the window with the body made up.

When I strip the coach back down for painting I'll take a couple of images showing the inside.

Keep Safe

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:32 am

Hi Mike. Here are a couple of images showing you how I fix the windows into place. Like I said this is the first coach kit I've done in many years so it's not neat and tidy as I would like. It didn't help me deciding to change direction and then change back but by then I had made up the basic coach body. In future I would make up the internal sides and cut out the window holes before assembling the coach body. Also I would use thinner glazing material for the droplights which means they could be fixed into place the same as the main windows. Having a plastic substructure attached to the coach sides give the door handles and grabrails a bit more to attach to rather than just glued to the inside of the coach side. I prefer to attach handles etc after the coach has been painted and lined as it makes these tasks easier to apply.

Keep Safe

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:51 pm

Just a quickly {the bishop said to the actress} What do you think of the colour of this roof I've just sprayed. I quite like it but before I tell you what colour I used what does everyone else think.

Keep Safe

Dave
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Paul Willis
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:33 pm

Dave,

If you're going to get it all smutty later, then that works for me...

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:33 pm

Hi Paul. Yes I will dirty it all up when I do the weathering for the complete coach. It was just to get opinions on the colour.

Dave

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Mike Garwood
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Mike Garwood » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:15 pm

I'd settle for that.

Mike

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:08 pm

The colour is Precision Leaking Oil! What I like about it is that it creates it's own shadow lines around the vents and rain strips. I think once some roof dirt is misted over and some weathering it will look quite nice or filthy.

Dave

David Catton
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Re: LMS D1735 Brake Third

Postby David Catton » Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:33 pm

Looking at the Precision Paints website, it appears as if the colour is M912 Oil Leakings?

HTH,

David C


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