Johnson 1P

John Palmer
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby John Palmer » Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:59 pm

Can't believe I did not previously realise that I already that upper picture of 58047 in her 1303 incarnation, and in high definition format too! Looking at my copy, it's quite clear that both letters and numerals are shaded, no doubt in red, and that there is a '1P' power classificaton ahead of the cab sidesheet cutout. The photograph is available from Rail Online at https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p836684668, and is said to have been taken at Derby Station in the 1930s. Does this increase the likelihood that red shading formed part of the locomotive's insignia after she was re-numbered 58047? It's noteworthy that in this 1930s view the smokebox door is carrying a sans serif cast number plate, in contrast with the serifed number and lettering. This style of plate was introduced in 1936, and the details of 58047's career that I hold suggest that she came to Highbridge from Nottingham in 1933 and departed to Gloucester in 1938, although there seem to be some doubts about these dates' accuracy. The SLS data cited in her BR Database entry suggests that she had a short spell of allocation to Derby from July to October 1947, and to Gloucester from October 1947 until Febuary 1948, when she returned to Highbridge. The picture taken at Derby shows her clearly carrying a Derby shed plate (17A), so I think the implication must be that it was taken at some date unknown between 1938 and 1947. Not sure that helps much in tying down the livery she carried as 58047, about which quite a lot of doubt seems to remain.

I'm fascinated by your second picture showing the locomotive carrying the sans serif 1303 number plate and a 22E Highbridge shed plate. The 22E plate and the roman tiles on the building strongly suggest a Somerset location, but I can't identify where it was taken – do you have any more information on this? The picture could date from the locomotive's pre-war stay on the S&D, presumably in the period 1936-1938, or from the post-war period of allocation to Highbridge from February 1948 to renumbering in May 1950.

Other possible points of interest in the second picture are the cab roof framework, I think for carrying a whistle cord from a motor train driving trailer, and the wagon to which she is attached. I am fairly confident that this is a Midland Railway Diagram 301 open goods wagon with hinged top plank above the door, a design Bob Essery commented upon as having largely evaded photography. He notes that 1000 of these were built for the MR in 1901 and a further 80 for the SDJR in 1902, so possibly this is one of the S&D wagons in home territory.

essdee
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby essdee » Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:25 pm

Is it not between Highbridge Station and the carriage shed west of the main loco works, viewed from the north side John - the wetlands of the riverside beyond?

Steve

essdee
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby essdee » Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:29 pm

Er - no it isn't!

But try the siding immediately west of Wells engine shed; note shadow and door on left margin.

Steve

John Palmer
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby John Palmer » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:29 pm

essdee wrote:Er - no it isn't!

But try the siding immediately west of Wells engine shed; note shadow and door on left margin.

Steve

That looks spot on to me, Steve. The features in the photograph correspond very well with plans of the area: the visible framework being the coal stage and the building with tiled roof a platelayers hut. I haven't been able to find other photographs showing the area immediately to the west of the engine shed, the closest being that on p.318 of Derek Phillips' recent treatise enlarging substantially on Judge and Potts' work. I note that adjacent to the shed is a telegraph pole carrying much the same insulator arrangement as that on the pole visible in the 1303 picture - a small point, but one that adds further weight to your identification.

Another trifling detail is that the lamp irons in the Wells picture of 1303 differ from those in the Derby picture in that the lamp rest is elevated from the running plate whilst in the Derby picture there is no such rest: the base of the lamp simply rests on the running plate surface. Pictures showing the locomotive as 58047 have the same style of iron as in the Derby picture. I think this indicates that the Wells picture pre-dates that at Derby, as otherwise there must have been two changes in the design of lamp iron fixed to the engine over a short space of time. For me that increases the likelihood that the Wells picture was taken during 1303's allocation to Highbridge in the 1930s.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:39 pm

Little bit of progress on my Johnson 1P build. All painted up and isignia applied. Next step is to apply a flat coat and then weathering. The chassis is almost ready to be reassembled, just a bit more weathering to do on the ash pan and brake rigging.
I doub't I'll get it finished before the end of the year but we live in hope.

All Best

Dave
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Dave Holt
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:41 am

Looking very neat indeed, Dave. Look forward to seeing the final article.
Dave.

DougN
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby DougN » Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:43 am

Oh I do like what you have done with the springs and pick ups... that looks very interesting. Can you give us a bit of a run down?
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:53 am

Thanks Dave, so am I. LOL.

Hi Doug. The ash pan and spring unit is down to the clever design by Justin at Romley Models. This acts as the keeper plate for the wheel sets but as surgested in the instructions it can provide a good platform for the pick-ups. The pick-ups themselves are just bronze wire bent round a thin rod and then soldered to some copperclad board {which was first attached to the keeper plate}. I then fed two wires from the copperclad pads through the ash pan to some more copperclad pads which they are soldered to. I then soldered to more wires with small sockets to these pads which go to the chip/motor. Another two wires are also soldered to the pads fed back through the ash pan and thensoldered to yet another piece of copperglad which is attached to the connecting arm for the rear bogie. Wires from the bogie are then soldered to these pads as well but this is done on the final assembly. Sorry if the images are not very clear but they are all painted up to hide it all. If you need any more info just let me know.

All Best

Dave
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Will L
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Will L » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:59 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:...Another two wires are also soldered to the pads fed back through the ash pan and thensoldered to yet another piece of copperglad which is attached to the connecting arm for the rear bogie. Wires from the bogie are then soldered to these pads as well but this is done on the final assembly. ...

I like to ensure my chassis are fully disassemble too so you are clearly a man after my own heart. As a result I have found pickup feed wires connected directly to a bogie are aesthetically unpleasing, and worse can cause problems restricting the bogie swing and hence derailments. I therefore came up with a design for bogie pickups described in this post starting from the "Reworking the Bogie" heading. The result is a bogie with pickups which has no wires connected directly to it and hence is not restricted by the wires and can be easily removed without the aid of a soldering iron. There is a fair amount of other stuff in this posting which concerns fitting CSBs to an (effectively) 4-4-0 chassis which you can comfortably ignore

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:23 pm

Hi Will. The way I did wired up the loco is by no means the correct way, it's how I did it, and I have to say it works and runs very well. Other than the ends of the pick-ups wires showing {they have not been trimmed yet} you can't really see any of the gubbins. However it was a right pain to do so I'll try your method on the next one I build.

As for ignoring help and advice on CSB I would do at my own peril. LOL.

All Best

Dave

John Palmer
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby John Palmer » Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:59 pm

Lovely neat job on the number and lettering, Dave. Look forward to seeing your take on the engine's weathering. In her 58047 incarnation she seemed to have quite a lot of pale-coloured dribble on both sides, running down the flank of the smokebox from the base of the chimney, perhaps slightly less on the offside than the near. I take this to have been salts/impurities precipitated out of exhaust condensate and represented it with drybrush streaking in the case of this engine, also applying it to the Salter valves and in single dribble lines running down either side of the firebox from the whistle.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:35 am

Hi All. Further progess has been made. I've finished the chassis and this has now been oiled ,wheels cleaned and tested. Once the chassis was reassembled I didn't have to do any major fettling other than rebending a couple of the sandpipes that were moved aside to allow the removal of the wheel sets for painting. This was done with the body attached.

I've also finished painting all the other bits and bobs, which only need weathering before fitting to the body. The body itself is just needing to be weathered. Hopfully I can get this build finished by the weekend.

All Best

Dave
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Hardwicke
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Hardwicke » Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:14 pm

Have you used the HMRS or Fox numbers? If so I think they are too big. ex LMS tanks in LMS hybrid livery got 8" numbers not 10". It shows in the spacing. Unfortunateley no one makes the 8" size as I found out on the 3F I painted. LMS lamp irons were changed around the 1940s from the plain iron to the one with the horizontal rest.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:51 am

Yeah thanks for that?

John Palmer
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby John Palmer » Mon Jan 09, 2023 12:09 am

As a fellow builder of 58047, my sentiments are pretty much the same as Serjt-Dave's! I fear you may well be right about the height of the numerals, but since - as you say - no-one offers the smaller size, we are rather stuck with what is available. Trying to hand paint correct height numerals I do not regard as a feasible proposition.

I'm interested by the comment that in the 1940s LMS lamp irons were changed from plain to the design with a horizontal rest - can you provide chapter and verse on what brought that change about, and whether it was a practice intended to be of universal application. I say 'intended' because the reverse of this practice seems to have been applied to this particular locomotive, as she was fitted with the 'horizontal rest' type of irons in the '30s (see the picture in this thread taken at Wells), but was subsequently fitted with the plain type lacking such rest, which she carried to the end of her days as 58047.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:14 pm

It's Finished!

At the weekend I finally got this loco finished. But it was a close run thing. I'd just done some touch up painting and whilst the body was on a stand it fell forwards and nose dived into the edge of my workbench. I managed to stop it falling onto the floor but anything below the front buffer beam was removed. The buffers and coulpling bar protected most of the detail on the buffer beam. After much swearing {lucky I still had the respirator on to muffle the foul words I was spouting}, I decided it would be best to leave my workshop and deal with this the next day. Gluing the parts back on wasn't a problem but the chipped paintwork needed touch up again. One other item that pinged off was the fireiron support, but then this was popping off was quite a regular occurence. Once sorted and body and chassis was mated up I did some initial testing. I notice it's sitting a bit down at the back which in turn was causing the guard irons to short on the track in a couple of locations, but other than that it runs well.

So here it is my Johnson 1P 0-4-4 58047. I hope you like it.

All Best

Dave
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:15 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:It's Finished! I hope you like it.



Yes! Great work Dave :thumb

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Hardwicke
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby Hardwicke » Mon May 15, 2023 3:43 pm

John Palmer wrote:
I'm interested by the comment that in the 1940s LMS lamp irons were changed from plain to the design with a horizontal rest - can you provide chapter and verse on what brought that change about, and whether it was a practice intended to be of universal application. I say 'intended' because the reverse of this practice seems to have been applied to this particular locomotive, as she was fitted with the 'horizontal rest' type of irons in the '30s.

Unfortunately not. There might be something in the Derby Works Orders about it but I haven't access to them just now. All I've done is look at photos. The 3F tanks also gained visible rivets on the buffer planks around the same time.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

John Palmer
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby John Palmer » Wed May 17, 2023 12:05 am

Hardwicke wrote:
John Palmer wrote:
I'm interested by the comment that in the 1940s LMS lamp irons were changed from plain to the design with a horizontal rest - can you provide chapter and verse on what brought that change about, and whether it was a practice intended to be of universal application. I say 'intended' because the reverse of this practice seems to have been applied to this particular locomotive, as she was fitted with the 'horizontal rest' type of irons in the '30s.

Unfortunately not. There might be something in the Derby Works Orders about it but I haven't access to them just now. All I've done is look at photos. The 3F tanks also gained visible rivets on the buffer planks around the same time.
Thanks for that. Could it be the case that, if lamp irons required replacement, works practice was to fit whatever came conveniently to hand? I'm at a bit of a loss to come up with reasons why there might have been a practice of substituting one design of iron for another: both seem to me to have been adequate for their intended purpose.

On rivets, one thing that has struck me was a tendency to substitute snaphead for flush rivetting in the post-war period. I've found this noticeable on LNER K2s through study of plenty of photographs of this particular class, but suspect the same may be true of other classes. I can hazard a guess that the reason for this is that flush rivetting involves the additional work of countersinking the outer plate and finish grinding, and that some razor man saw an opportunity to shave some time off the operation. Same saving applied to shunting tanks?

Dave, my compliments on the lovely job you've made of 58047. There are some bits on my version that I prefer to yours, but I truly envy the superior appearance of your smokebox door - wish I'd found a way of making mine look equally good, but the Craftsman casting I used is a little too big on diameter and certainly much too deep. Ah well...

davebradwell
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Re: Johnson 1P

Postby davebradwell » Wed May 17, 2023 5:31 pm

Re rivets. NER engines had very smooth flush riveted smokeboxes and bufferbeams when built but in later years signs of rivets were visible. This was just a case of the final cleaning up operation being eliminated; countersunk rivets were still used but left as formed by pneumatic hammer leaving a small bump rather than a head.

A different process may account for your K2 observations. The later K1s were built by NB who used welded smokeboxes and later replacements at BR works were riveted and not flushed off. Doubt if LNER workshops used snapheads but my knowledge of such things is confined to a corner of the country. It's a real shame that the preserved J27 and Q6 have grown snapheads - a cultural crime.

DaveB


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