Second time Around

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Serjt-Dave
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Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:01 pm

Finally got these two all painted up and decaled, now for the weathering. This is where it went tits up the last time. LOL.

A 1 CCT.jpg
A 1 Brake Van.jpg

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Noel
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:25 pm

The CCT is a rather strange colour, which I presume is not down to the camera? When built in 1951 it would have been carmine. Its first repaint I would expect to have been into BR SR green, as the SR never used maroon. Or did 2074 somehow escape to a non-SR works, despite the trailing "S"?
Regards
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:25 am

Hi Noel. I'm not saying I had a sleepless night fretting that I've painted the the CCT the wrong bloody colour and unable to check what I did paint it in as it was raining too hard to go up to my workshop. So first thing this morning I made my way up there. I'm glad to say I didn't paint it BR maroon but in BR crimson {as in blood of blood and custard fame}. Looking at the instruction sheet for the Parkside kit it states that D3101 1951 BR built vans were painted in crimson and in the David Gould book SR Passenger Vans he states they were painted in "BR Red" straight off the bat.

Thinking about it I should have painted it in the BR crimson {faded} as I'll be doing the Bullied coaches in.

Dave

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Noel
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Noel » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:18 pm

OK, we agree on what it should be, but I still think it's an odd colour for crimson [which I tend to call carmine, a left over from childhood, I think]. The thought occurred much later in the evening to wonder if it was crimson lake rather than crimson? The former is what the LMS used, and which BR 1956 maroon was intended to mimic.

Apologies for the poor picture, but this shows, L to R, Humbrol BR maroon, Precision faded crimson [if I remember correctly] and Humbrol satin red.
NPCCS01.jpg
NPCCS01.jpg (154.19 KiB) Viewed 4623 times

I'm not too convinced by the faded crimson [a bit too much blue, I think], but I have seen a colour photo of one of these vehicles which is not too dissimilar in shade, so I've left it. The WR used a fairly bright crimson, hence the satin red on the Horse Box, which I prefer. Colour perception is very personal, and many factors can affect it, so I'm not intending to imply that you should follow what I do, but hopefully the photo shows why I questioned the colour of S2074S.
Regards
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:33 pm

Okay Noel, I'm now even more confused. Looking at your image, you say the middle GUV was painted in the Precision Paint Faded Crimson and the horse box on the right Humbrol's Satin Red. Now look at my image showing my two pots of crimson paint. The crimson on the left looks like your faded crimson and my faded crimson looks like your satin red. :? :?

What I was thinking of doing was spraying the faded crimson lightly over my CCT to create highlights etc.

Dave

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David Thorpe
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Re: Second time Around

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:45 pm

Everyone sees colours differently. Colours themselves change due to passage of time, sunlight, weather, and even differences between paintshops, not to mention variations in computer screens and the human memory. Humbrol's version of a railway colour may be markedly different from, say, Precision's version of the same colour. Both will no doubt claim that they're right. So while Noel may not like it, that doesn't mean it's wrong. The important question (which is the one I use for my own efforts) is do you think it looks right?

DT

dal-t
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Re: Second time Around

Postby dal-t » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:03 pm

FWIW all three of Noel's vans seem to match prototype examples I have seen (according to how they display on my laptop screen and my personal colour memory, of course). I'm intrigued by the Humbrol Satin Red, though. The current (acrylic ) railway series has several reds, but they are all matt. The old (O.K., make that ancient) Authentic range had at least four reds in the railway series ( HR110, 116, 137, 144) but I don't think the finish was specified. The current main range has at least two reds in 'satin' finish (Hu132, 174) and a 'brown' that can look very similar (Hu133). I think it's becoming clear (sic) just how easy it is to get confused in such matters ...
David L-T

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Tim V
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Tim V » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:21 pm

A while ago I was looking at a book on Mk1 coaches. The colour pictures showed blue/grey coaches. The blue/grey was not how I remembered the coaches looking.

Now, if the colours from the 70s don't match my memories, what hope is there for the 50s - or earlier? Red in particular is a fugitive colour. Colour reproduction is a minefield - and I speak as your editor as well as a painter :shock:

Moral is, don't rely on your memories, or colour photographs. Best thing to do is paint everything in shades of grey - coz that is what the photos accurately show ...
Tim V
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Lord Colnago
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Lord Colnago » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:35 pm

Hi Dave,

On St. Merryn we used Tilling Red to represent faded crimson. As far as I know no one has made any unfavourable comment on the colour and it looks right. NBC Red is an extremely close shade, if not exactly the same, and would do just as well. Both colours are available from Precision Paints. Hope this is helpful.
The second best priest

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Noel
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Noel » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:55 pm

The Humbrol satin red I used is 132, plus varnish [Humbrol matt cote]. I'm fairly sure that I used Precision faded crimson on the LMSR CCT [same varnish], but I don't have the tin any more, so can't be absolutely sure. The photo was taken in dull winter daylight.

The Wikipedia definition of crimson is RGB 220/20/60. According to my software, the photo shows {L to R] RGB 74/55/59; 107/47/57; 166/69/63 [very difficult to be sure on the last one as the base colour has been overlaid by weathering]. Make of that what you will.

According to BR Mark 1 Coaches, the colour used was BS381C number 540. Looking at the various BS381C colour charts on the internet shows a wide variety of colours for 540, some more credible than others.

As pointed out earlier, memory is unreliable, and, in any event, I didn't start taking any serious interest in trains until almost all coaching stock had gone maroon [or green], so I'm reliant on photos, with all that that implies about accuracy. However, coach crimson was around into the very early sixties, when colour rendition was not too bad, and the colour on mark 1s is reasonably consistent between photos [and very different to the later maroon when the two appear together in the same photo]. My view of the paint tins Dave has posted are that the faded one is not unreasonable, although looking rather different to the one I used, but the 'unfaded' one still looks more like maroon [or crimson lake!]
Regards
Noel

John Palmer
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Re: Second time Around

Postby John Palmer » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:34 am

It being the solstice I missed my opportunity to take photographs in natural daylight, so the three uppermost layers of the accompanying composite image had to be taken under 'daylight' strip lighting. They probably don't establish much other than the fact that I have a number of very old tins of Precision paint. The third layer shows the descriptions of the paint tins shown in the second layer, and the first layer shows enlarged swatches of the sample paint daubed on each tin lid. You can't see it in the photo, but the label on the left-hand tin also bears the legend 'blood' to confirm that it was the complement of 'custard' in the early BR two-colour livery. To each colour swatch I have added the RGB and HSV values as they appear in the image.
Coach crimsons.jpg

The left hand side of the lowest layer is an extract from the Colour-Rail shot of ex-LBSCR invalid saloon DS70008 that appears in Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour', which I chose as being the clearest and freshest example of this livery that I could find The right hand swatch on this bottom layer is sampled from the end of the LBSC saloon in the photograph, and into this I have inset a smaller swatch derived from the right hand tin lid in Dave's picture; i.e. Phoenix Precision P303 'faded blood'. The Phoenix colour actually appears to be a close match for the LBSC vehicle in 'fresh from the paint shop' condition, rather than a faded state, and accords well with my own (fickle) recollection of the early BR livery applied to non-gangwayed coaches.

The 'blood' component of the two-colour BR livery has always struck me as being subject to quite a lot of variation, in some pictures appearing close to the lowest layer in my composite image, but appreciably darker in others – though not so dark as my top left swatch (the old Precision 'blood').

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:19 pm

Hi All. finally got round to finishing off the CCT that I ballsed up sometime back {christ Dec 2018}. I decided to use a acrylic matt varnish to seal the paint work and weathering in. Added the windows and fitted the roof, which I promptly had to remove as I forgot to put in the window grills. Once that was sorted and the roof reattached a final weathering on the window and it's finished. A test run over the layout was 99% successful except it derails over one point in a wrong direction move. I can't see that this move will ever be done in a running session but I like stock to run through all points in both directions even if they are unlikely to do so in real life. Not over happy with the end result with this, the second trip to the paint stripper hasn't done it any favors. The roof has a slight gap at run end, still it's a piece of finished stock that can now go into service. The white smudge on the sides of the van are meant to be rubbed out chalk marks but I don't think it worked out too well.

The ex-LMS brake van which was done at the same time as the CCT is still in the paint shop while I work out how to fix some weathering that went wrong.

Keep Safe and Keep Modelling.

Dave

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bécasse
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Re: Second time Around

Postby bécasse » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:23 pm

That looks about right, those Southern vans absorbed brake-block dust like there was no tomorrow. I remember looking at one at Waterloo and trying to work out whether it had been repainted blue or was still green, not only couldn't I tell what the base colour was, I couldn't find any markings that were sufficiently legible to determine their colour and type-face either (which would have told me the base colour).

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Thanks Becasse. Looking at images of these vans in their later life it was hard enough to see if they had windows let alone what colour they were. LOL. As this one was made in 1951 and my layout is set from 1950 to about 1956 {ish} it wasn't in a to bad a condition.

Keep Safe

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Second time Around

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:54 pm

Here's the second one of my gruesome twosome. The bloody thing fought me to the bitter end. Once wheeled up took it for a test drive, initially started well going through all the point work no problems but on straight track it kept coming off. I think after a revisit to the striping tank it's gone out for true. Tweaking Mr Bradwell's springing units and the holes in the axle boxes it runs a lot better. I think I've over done the weathering, it's not what I was aiming for. Some of it was to hind where the acrylic matt varnish had rubbed off. But it looks good at a distance and with the lights off and it's on my layout.

Keep Safe

Dave

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