In A Flap

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Serjt-Dave
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In A Flap

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue May 18, 2021 8:04 pm

Hi All. I've never made signals before and so why not ease yourself in by making a working ground signal from a kit that's not designed to work. My layout will require three of these "flappy" types ground signals protecting their trap points.

I made this one just as a proof of concept to get a understanding of how and how not to make the bloody thing work. The only thing I would like to be able to do is have some fibre optics to have illuminated lights. Any Ideas?

All Best

Dave

2021-05-18 20.40.38.jpg
2021-05-18 20.41.29.jpg
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Neil Smith
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Neil Smith » Tue May 18, 2021 8:43 pm

Looks good Dave!

I have saved a link to those photos as I will need a few of these when I have built up enough stock to start on a layout..

All the best

Neil

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue May 18, 2021 9:18 pm

Hi Neil. No problem. I did a short video of the flappy thing flapping but for some reason I can't upload.

The kit itself is very straight forward. The hard part was soldering the brass tube on the flappy bit, getting it in the right place. I also beefed up the counter balance arm as well.

Dave

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grovenor-2685
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Re: In A Flap

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue May 18, 2021 9:45 pm

Plenty of instruction on use of fibre optics for signals in Steve Hewitt's topic on RMweb.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/59687-semaphore-signals-4mm-scale-mainly/
Regards
Keith
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LesGros
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Re: In A Flap

Postby LesGros » Wed May 19, 2021 5:26 am

Dave,
A very attractive little model,

For illumination, perhaps you could use something like this:

Micro LED


MICRO LED.jpg

Screenshot Amazon.jpg


If the original was gas lit, you could add a MERG Gaslight Twinkler ( you will need to be a member of MERG)

Regards,
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LesG

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never made anything useful

ralphrobertson
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Re: In A Flap

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed May 19, 2021 7:56 am

I would go along with using the tiny LEDs for illumination. Here is a 3 high LMS ground signal which I made for Slattocks illuminated using 3 of the surface mount LEDs and controlled using the MERG removable signal mount. The lower arm needs tweaking to show red.

20171106_103326_resized.jpg


The complete unit is shown below. Magnets are used to link the operating wires to the servos so that the whole unit can be made removeable. This is essential in our case since this signal is right at the front of the layout and easily damaged.

20171106_102921_resized.jpg


Ralph
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Serjt-Dave
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed May 19, 2021 10:00 am

Thanks guys for your help and suggestions.

Keith. I've admire Mr Hewitt's work for sometime now. I was going to ask him for some help and advice as well. The RM Web thread is very good and detailed.
Les. I'll look into those micro LED's. Thankfully the lamps were paraffin/oil, so I'll have to forego the pleasure of fitting a twinkler as well. LOL.
Ralph. Cracking work there. I decided not to use the MERG removeable system but my one is still removeable. The ones I build for the layout I will have it like yours where the signals and mechanism are combined, where my one you have to disconnect the signal from the mechanism to remove it.

All Best

Dave

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Will L
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Will L » Wed May 19, 2021 10:09 am

ralphrobertson wrote:...The complete unit is shown ...
One is reminded of the tip of the iceberg.

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Tim V
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Tim V » Wed May 19, 2021 10:55 am

I regard lighting signals as a waste of time. The illumination is vastly over-bright. I made a point of looking at Minehead station in the dark - the signals were only visible when you were looking straight at them (which is effectively correct) and they are I believe lit by electricity - not oil. I don't operate my trains at night.
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Re: In A Flap

Postby ralphrobertson » Wed May 19, 2021 12:28 pm

I regard lighting signals as a waste of time.

I am coming round to that conclusion too Tim. Given the amount of work for the result I am not sure it is worth the effort. If you have illuminated signals you then have to do it for everything else including street lamps and perhaps even head and tail lamps on models. Perhaps better not to start?

Ralph

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Tim V
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Tim V » Wed May 19, 2021 1:17 pm

I was reminded that some signal lamps were only lit during winter (on the GWR/WR in the GA), so set your layout in the summer months and save a lot of work!
Tim V
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martin goodall
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Re: In A Flap

Postby martin goodall » Thu May 20, 2021 8:34 am

My understanding is that oil lamps in signals burnt 24/7, and were serviced and replenished weekly. I haven't heard about them being unlit in the summer on the GWR/BR(WR), but I imagine this would only have applied to some lightly-trafficked branch lines where the timetable finished before dusk. (I must check in my copy of the General Appendix, but I am willing to bet that it probably said something like "subject to the prior approval of the Divisional Superintendent" or some such formula.)

The important point so far as we are concerned as model-makers is that during the day, the light from the lamp would have been totally invisible and, as Tim says, you probably wouldn't have seen it at night either, except head-on from an approaching train.

So I think we would all be wasting our time if we were to illuminate our signal lamps on semaphore signals. (I cannot comment on colour light signals, as I know absolutely nothing about them, although I assume that their lenses also directed the light in a fairly narrow beam.)

I am also unconvinced as to whether it is worth making ground signals work in 4mm scale. They are so small that their movement is virtually imperceptible. My comparatively small branch terminus layout should have six ground signals altogether, but there are only two that are sufficiently clearly visible from a normal viewing position to make it worth considering the possibility of making them operational. At the moment, I remain unconvinced even about these two.

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Will L
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Will L » Thu May 20, 2021 10:31 am

I remember watching Howard's little masterpiece and knowing that all the signals worked, but I never saw most of them doing it as you had to be watching exactly the right spot at the right moment, so yes I can understand not bothering to make them work, or even (whisper it) not model them at all.

However I can also feel that modelling imperative that make me reproduce things I don't think anybody else is likely to notice. So if you want working illuminated ground signals Dave, I'd get on with it if I was you.

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Noel
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Noel » Thu May 20, 2021 10:59 am

martin goodall wrote:My understanding is that oil lamps in signals burnt 24/7, and were serviced and replenished weekly. I haven't heard about them being unlit in the summer on the GWR/BR(WR), but I imagine this would only have applied to some lightly-trafficked branch lines where the timetable finished before dusk. (I must check in my copy of the General Appendix, but I am willing to bet that it probably said something like "subject to the prior approval of the Divisional Superintendent" or some such formula.)


The wording of the general exception is "On lines where the train service is confined to the hours of daylight the signals should not be lighted except during fog or falling snow, but the lamps must be kept in readiness for immediate use, if necessary". It is not in the 1936 GA as issued, but is in Table Q of the WR Sectional Appendices I have, along with, in one case, specific to that Section, certain signals at boxes which are only open temporarily for seasonal or special traffic. For these, specific dates are given between which the exception applies. There is no comment about seasonal variation, so presumably the general exception applied only where the service qualified all year round. There is no indication of any discretion in the application of the rules.
Regards
Noel

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jim s-w
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Re: In A Flap

Postby jim s-w » Fri May 21, 2021 2:27 am

Umm...

Image
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Tony Wilkins
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri May 21, 2021 11:12 am

martin goodall wrote:
So I think we would all be wasting our time if we were to illuminate our signal lamps on semaphore signals. (I cannot comment on colour light signals, as I know absolutely nothing about them, although I assume that their lenses also directed the light in a fairly narrow beam.)



You are correct about colour light signals, to the extent that when a train is stopped close to one the illuminated aspect can be all but invisible to the driver. Hence they are either fitted with separate small side lenses referred to as "Pigs ears" or the main lens has a small wedge where the optics are arranged to refract some of the light towards the drivers view. This is in my view not an excuse not to make them work. Since most LEDs have a fairly narrow viewing angle (although wider than that of a colour light signal), they are an ideal solution.

Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

martin goodall
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Re: In A Flap

Postby martin goodall » Fri May 21, 2021 11:37 am

jim s-w wrote:Umm...


Yes, very nice, Jim. This layout is justly admired for its atmosphere and realism (as is Birmingham New Street).

But the image is at least twice life size on my computer screen, and the camera was presumably standing on the track, so that the ground signal is roughly head-on in this view. A great deal of fun can be had in photographing one's layout from angles from which it cannot normally be seen (and I certainly do this frequently), but would you be able to see the aspect of the ground signal, and its lamp, from a 'normal' viewing angle standing in front of the layout? ;)

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Tim V
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Tim V » Fri May 21, 2021 12:45 pm

Working ground signals? No problem - seen here at Railwells 1997.
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stephenfreeman
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Re: In A Flap

Postby stephenfreeman » Fri May 21, 2021 1:06 pm


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jim s-w
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Re: In A Flap

Postby jim s-w » Fri May 21, 2021 2:24 pm

martin goodall wrote:
jim s-w wrote:Umm...


Yes, very nice, Jim. This layout is justly admired for its atmosphere and realism (as is Birmingham New Street).

But the image is at least twice life size on my computer screen, and the camera was presumably standing on the track, so that the ground signal is roughly head-on in this view. A great deal of fun can be had in photographing one's layout from angles from which it cannot normally be seen (and I certainly do this frequently), but would you be able to see the aspect of the ground signal, and its lamp, from a 'normal' viewing angle standing in front of the layout? ;)


Yep. Because it’s a continuous curve and set in the dark you can see the light.I agree with Tim though if the layout was set in the day I wouldn’t bother with the lights as if you can still see them in in the light they are too bright. Same for 60s and 80s diesel locos.
Jim Smith-Wright

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Terry Bendall
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri May 21, 2021 4:07 pm

Jim's layout shows what can be achieved with lighting if it is done properly. Since Brettle Road is designed to be viewed in the dark all the lighting works.

jim s-w wrote:I wouldn’t bother with the lights as if you can still see them in in the light they are too bright. Same for 60s and 80s diesel locos.


I agree. Lots of people make use of LEDs on locos and elsewhere and they are far too bright. If they are going to be used a fairly high value resistor needs to be included in the circuit to dim things down. Just because something can be done, it does not mean that it should be.

Tim V wrote:Working ground signals? No problem


No and on Pulborough we did it. The LBSC pattern can be seen moving since the body rotates. Visitors notice them and the drivers use them when driving.

Terry Bendall

Tony Wilkins
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Re: In A Flap

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri May 21, 2021 4:29 pm

One of my bugbears is over bright lighting on models and the trade is probably responsible for much of this as if they fit lighting to models, they want it to be noticed. I have some DMUs with interior lighting and to change the resistors, which are surface mounted and tiny really needs specialist equipment, so not exactly easy for many people.

My layout Green Street is perhaps unusual in as much as the ground signals work, but few of the running signals do. A job that has been on the to do list for longer than I care to admit.

Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.


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