Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

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Paul Townsend
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Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:00 am

Recent developments in using infra -red and/or radio technology for controlling locos are missing a trick.

There are emerging industry standards for resonant inductive coupled power transfer. This achieves over 90% efficiency, has been available for some years with ICs handling up to 5watts power and the latest standard goes to 120w.

With smaller batteries or SuperCaps in the loco and contactless recharging we have a real way forward.

The technology is getting loads of R&D as relevant to mobile phones, kitchen appliances and electric cars.

Someone needs to develop this specifically for MR use...I would love to but already have too many projects in hand so just tossing ideas into the pot.

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John Bateson
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby John Bateson » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:29 am

"resonant inductive coupled power transfer"

Is this not the method used by Protocab to recharge the batteries in the loco?

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

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iak
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby iak » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 am

My brain hurts... :?
As if not enough at the moment :D
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
Robert Fripp


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Tim V
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Tim V » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:37 pm

What would Nikola Tesla say?
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:29 am

Tim V wrote:What would Nikola Tesla say?


Purrrfek

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:44 am

John Bateson wrote:"resonant inductive coupled power transfer"

Is this not the method used by Protocab to recharge the batteries in the loco?

John


I quote from Protocab website:
"The locomotive takes no power or signals from the track. Instead, the Locomotive Control Unit interprets wireless signals, and manages power flowing from the battery to the motor."

Hadn't read this until home from ScaleForum so didn't ask Tony Hagon on his stall exactly what it means. I read the first sentence as meaning "while running"

I did chat with him briefly about batteries, Supercaps and control electronics and he never mentioned charging arrangements. I was in too much of a hurry and so didn't think to ask. Silly me! Anyway the MERG Mafia descended on him so I ran for cover! I assumed and possibly wrongly that you need to plug in or have some live track for recharging.

If he is using what I reckon he should...my OP.... then congratulations for moving MR into C21.

As Tim V knows, Tesla nearly did it 100 years ago, but his system was too LF to make resonance easy! As often the case the engineering thinking was ahead of the supporting technology and materials.

Now it is easy! Just needs customising for 4mm and smaller....doddle for a competent Electronics Engineer with a bit of time to spare.

Let's hope Tony is THE MAN.

I gather the next MERG meeting in Keen House will have a spot re this, I must try to be there.

Come in Keith N.
You are a link MERG_S4Soc and will know what was said to the Mafia!

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John Bateson
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby John Bateson » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:57 am

I gathered that initally there will be a miniature wired connection. Early next year there will be a loop under the track that will do the same thing - the thing I saw looks rather neat, but the locos have to be parked over the loop, which really should be no problem at all, stick them at the end of platforms etc right by the water fillers.
The start up price may seem a little daunting - but if starting from scratch - no wires - at all - no DCC - which will mean that operators can drive and signalpersons can signal!
I can forsee a lot of "Please Explain" notes being passed by the various teams ...
Wonderful.
John
Last edited by John Bateson on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:56 am

I had a decent chat with both of the Protocab chaps on Sunday at Scaleforum, I picked Sunday as less busy !

Their plan is to use inductive power transfer, so no plugs and sockets. The current test locos do have plug/socket arrangements for charging the batteries as the inductive loop stuff hasn't been integrated yet.
Inductive power devices exist commercially for cellphones and other similar gadgets, and as the batteries that Protocab plan to use are essentially from cellphone/tablet computer use, the charging electronics is well known. The loop for charging would go under the track.


The Protocab architecture looks well thought out, my chat dealt with a some detailed issues I wanted to understand. There are a few more details I'd like to have explored which they were unwilling to discuss at this stage, but said more would be released in time (I can understand that position from their perspective). And there are a couple of minor areas where I think there is scope for electronic interfaces which could reduce their plastics tooling costs for physical control handsets (as alternative to smartphone software handsets) and time to market. A physical handset is an enormous cost and any handset design tends to be set in stone for years. The big question is whether they can turn a design into a good product. It is a hard task which will keep them occupied for the next six months to a year.


- Nigel (not part of the MERG mafia group aluded to in the earlier postings ).

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:39 pm

You are a link MERG_S4Soc and will know what was said to the Mafia!
I was to busy on the demo over the weekend and have not had any chance since to talk to Gordon and Bob so while I may know eventually, I don't yet.
Keith

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:21 pm

John Bateson wrote:I gathered that initally there will be a miniature wired connection. Early next year there will be a loop under the track that will do the same thing - the thing I saw looks rather neat, but the locos have to be parked over the loop, which really should be no problem at all, sick them at the end of platforms etc right by the water fillers....

John


Good so they are on my case!

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Coronach
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby Coronach » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:46 am

I've just come across this control system and I am fascinated.
Activity has been minimal since late 2012 though from what I can see.
Have there been further developments as I'd like to see this concept get off the ground.

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jayell
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Re: Inductive Resonant Power Transfer

Postby jayell » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:30 am

I had a good look at what Protcab seemed to be offering last year but in the end decided it was overkill for what I wanted to do. I opted in the end for the Deltang system as being both simpler and cheaper for a 'one loco in steam' branch line with only a pair of turnouts that could be operated by 'wire in tube'.

This system does involve plugging a charger into a tiny socket under the loco but that is no problem as the battery in the loco has to be switched on and off anyway with a tiny switch - also under the loco.

One of the potential benefits from development of the Protocab system might be that smaller batteries and low voltage gearhead motors to drive the locos will be more easily obtainable.

John Lewis


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