Connah's Quay: The Layout.

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jon price
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby jon price » Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:20 pm

Runaway crashes! Well there were a couple but considering the nature of the line I think the safety record was pretty good. Unfortunately the worst crash was when No6 ran away into No8 in the LNWR exchange sidings behind the station, so this would all take place behind the backscene (when I have worked out what it is going to be) and to one side of the traverser, so they will have to be assumed. I am aiming to try to build WM&CQR No6. This must qualify as one of the most rebuilt and long lived locos. Built 1846 for the Manchester and Birmingham Railway as an 0-6-0, Rebuilt by the LNWR in 1870 as an 0-6-0T, bought by the Buckley Railway in 1872, rebuilt by the WM&CQR in 1880 as an 0-8-0T, rebuilt in 1890 as an 0-6-2T, Badly damaged in a runaway accident at Connah's Quay in 1891, heavily rebuilt in 1897, rebuilt again in 1903 as an 0-8-0T, retained by the GCR after the takeover, and finally cut up by the LNER in 1923. If I'm rigorous about time frame it will be the final guise 0-8-0T, when it would be black with minimal lining, but I have a very nice photo showing the fully lined indian red livery after the 1897 rebuild so I'm tempted to make it as an 0-6-2T
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

Enigma
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby Enigma » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:35 pm

Hi Jon. I wondered if you have seen this? -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1le6z1clFAM

I found it while trying to find more details of the various WM&CQ 'might have beens' that are mentioned in Boyd's book.

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jon price
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby jon price » Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:17 pm

Hi Enigma,

The video shows up everything that is wrong with virtual reconstructions. It is, by virtue of the appearance extremely plausible, BUT the details of the railway are almost completely wrong. Obviously some details (such as the inn) are known from photographs, and can be rendered as acurately as our models. When it comes to the railway however although there are a variety of track layouts plans and maps available the video misunderstands how all of them work, and therefore makes serious errors, most notably with reference to the use of the steam cranes, wagon turntables, and brick wagons. On top of that there are too many strange long wheelbse opens marked as Great Central, and the loco is the wrong one for the eralier period;, and should be black, not lined if it is the correct loco for the later period. Also there are far too many lamp posts, which are clearly marked on the excellent GCR map, and they are the wrong type.

Other than that it is very pretty. :)

Jon
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Enigma
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby Enigma » Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:29 pm

I reckon I picked up on at least most of the things you've mentioned but, as you say, it is a very nice film to watch if you don't take it to seriously. I suppose the 'faux pas' are as a result of people creating the film not being really aware of what they are seeing on plans, photos etc. A bit like the 'locos' that feature on birthday (and Fathers Day cards!) that are aimed at 'railway enthusiasts' and bought by friends and family.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:43 pm


Many thanks for the link. It's an impressive piece of work and I enjoyed watching it, but the lack of check rails was difficult to ignore.

Martin.
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jon price
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby jon price » Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:09 pm

[/quote]
but the lack of check rails was difficult to ignore.[/quote]

Also the fact that the tracks in the yard, which were built in pairs running into a turntable are all depicted running to buffers; this means that the trader wagons don't run full onto the rear tracks parallel to the quay so that the steam cranes running on the front tracks can lift the wheeled brick boxes off the trader wagons and into the hold of the ships where they are unloaded, and then replaced empty on the trader wagons which are then returned empty via the wagon turntables onto another of the paired tracks.. This whole business with boxes, wagons and cranes was the entire basis of the trade at the section of Connah's Quay depicted in the video. Instead the steam cranes are depicted lifting unidentified bundles or crates in or out of open wagons. Further upstream was a coal tippler allowing coal to be offloaded into holds, and again there were pairs of track for inbound loaded and outbound empty coal wagons but coal wagons had no reason to be lined up on the section of quay depicted in the video. The static cranes, on the side of the dock, were for general traffic, but two are misplaced, and two are not there, instead being replaced by a steam crane in the wrong place.

So no, there were no check rails visible in the video on the curve out of the bridge under the main line, but actually the whole brick export operation was missing, which is pretty poor since it was the absolute defining component of the traffic there, and the raison d'etre for the development of the Quay. As for the loco, depicted as a WMCQR machine, it seems to be Thomas the Tank engine. The actual locos used at the quay are reasonably well illustrated in source material and a generic Hudswell Clarke saddle tank would have been fairly accurate and easy to represent, maybe even already available as a wire frame from one of the virtual railway people.

It is disappointing that in a piece of work commissioned by the Quay Waterman's Association the video artists have been so casual with the source material which must have been their starting point, and have made such a hash of representing the very local and specific working aspects of the Quay.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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John Bateson
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby John Bateson » Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:40 am

I also noticed a few things that were probably not true to railway history.
Although I would question whether the Buckley Bricks were the sole reason for the railway.

However, I suspect that the producers were faced with the problem of "who're you gonna call", not knowing there were industry experts who have also done their research on the Quay and the surrounding railway systems, and they were especially unlikely to know that a detailed model is being made by a member here who could have advised.

It may just be that we are looking at it from a railway point of view, while the producers have produced what I think is an incredibly good historical summary of the industry in that area, from their point of view and would have been unlikely to have had the specialist knowledge of the railway trackwork. A piece of history that has been ignored for so long, even by our politicians, but will be a revelation to many of the general population.

If anybody is interested, here is a film commissioned by the Buckley Society, showing the top end of the brick transport system, which bricks were transported world wide.
https://www.deeside.com/stunning-film-brings-buckleys-historic-industrial-heritage-to-life/
It shows how much of Buckley has changed, from a skyline of smoking chimneys too a plethora of houses in this dormitory town of ours. And it is only in the last few years that some of the small brick trucks have appeared in the centre of Buckley on display.

The showing of the Hancocks Wharf does indicate the quality of the trackwork around the system. I'm sure Jon will have seem many of the old photographs.

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Will L
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby Will L » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:26 am

Looking at the video posted here by Enigma,and the one pointed to by John, you can but be impressed by the achievement of the video artist and the power of modern animation techniques. I agree with John that the artist problem here is knowing where to go for the details, and I can't help feeling that it may be more productive to acknowledge the overall impressive quality of the work while gently pointing out that there are still some significant historical inaccuracies which anybody really interested in the history of the port and how it worked may well want to know.

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jon price
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby jon price » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:45 am

I absolutely think that the videos are high quality productions from the video point of view. It is the apparent failure to make use of readily accessible source material for the Quay video that I criticise. I agree the brick industry was not the sole user of the Quay, but the coal traffic, although in the very first instance operating from a drop on the portion of the quay shown in the video, was rapidly moved further upstream The Quay video must surely have been based on data from the GCR survey "big roll" map, which is the largest scale accurate map of the quays, bridges, and buildings, and on this basis the rail stuff is not accurately rendered. There is only one accurate punlished source for the railway, (which contains various track plans plus details of the locos) and there is a copy in the archive at Hawarden where the "big roll" is kept. I doubt my own model will (eventually) be fully accurate, but the salient points of the operation will be present.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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zebedeesknees
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Re: Connah's Quay: The Layout.

Postby zebedeesknees » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:30 pm

jon price wrote: but the lack of check rails was difficult to ignore.
As for the loco, depicted as a WMCQR machine, it seems to be Thomas the Tank engine.


Nah, Thomas had rods!
What I found hilarious if not tragic was the beach generating waves, and the point blades on the outsides of the stock rails!
But then with this 32"4K monitor I have 'previous' for seeing too much...

Ted.
(A purists' purist)

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jon price
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Connah's Quay: The Layout. Suspended

Postby jon price » Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:41 pm

Tedious change of circumstances as a result of house buyers seriously overestimating their ability to support their offer means that work on the layout, which was realistically too big for the available space, is suspended for the forseeable future (how can anyone tell the difference? they all ask). The only board that is semi-scenicked and with track is the LNWR main line so that now resides in a travelling case (helpfully labelled with Holyhead and Chester ends, base and top). I can't really see that alone forming the basis of anything unless there is future in a four foot main line with ten foot fiddle yards at each end perhaps? Looks unfortunately like the only way forward is one, or perhaps two, small cameos.

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jon price
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Connah's Quay: The Layout. Un-Suspended

Postby jon price » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:14 am

So radical(ish) rethink and sawing has meant abandoning the probably unworkable extensive dock field and moving to a more workable size, nevertheless retaining pretty well all the scenic elements, including the (much truncated) Chester to Holyhead main line view blocker. This also allows the development further down the line (play on words) of a piece of Buckley mainline with much more operational potential. Only one of these boards at a time could be operated in the current space, but both could be put together if the dining room was co-opted. Huzzah!. Photo shows truncated dock board ready for work to restart, plus the map shows the location of the new board. This will be a compressed version of the junction at the top of the line up from Connah's Quay which includes an actual loading bank (in this case John Williams' Brick Works), and the ability to run the planned, though never activated, passenger service to the back of the LNWR station.
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