wagons, am I doing this right?

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jon price
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wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:07 pm

So having started on locos, baseboards and buildings it only remained to begin the wagons and I would have a complete set of partially completed layout elements.. Painting the mineral wagons I blithely began to paint the top edges of the sides the same colour as the wagon's ironwork, rather than the woodwork on the grounds that I was aware of metal protection strips being used. But were they? Was it a norm, or occasional? Anyone have any idea? Bear in mind that this is circa 1904-6 (a bit vague to be temporally finescale I know). Photos will follow once this is satisfactorily resolved.

garethashenden
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby garethashenden » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:41 pm

My understanding is that the top strapping became more common as time went on. You'll really need to look at prototype pictures to know for sure. I think you'd be safer painting the top of the top plank wagon colour for you era.

dal-t
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby dal-t » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:02 pm

You might like to look through this thread for some discussion of the capping strip. In addition to the MRJ articles that Flymo recommends, Geoff Kent's 'The 4mm Wagon', particularly Part One, has some good prototype photos of the strip, although it may be hard to tie those to the precise dates you're working to (FYI I personally started off modelling a notional 5-year spread, 1898-1903, subsequently extended to 10 years, 1895-1905, now increasingly fluid over the period 1900 to 1922 - simply because I keep finding things outside the defined timespan that I want to build! Whether that excludes me from qualifying as a 'finescale modeller' is open to doubt, though other aspects of my approach most probably do!). HTH.
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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:21 pm

Thanks for this input. I think, after looking at some of the sources referred to I think I will go with the woodwork colour. Fine for the black wagons, but a bit of restoration is needed on some of the others. The time span is fairly critical as things changed rather drastically by 1906 as the WM&CQR was fully incorporated into the GCR, and by 1910 most of its locos, coaches and wagons had been scrapped.

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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:11 pm

Mineral wagons and brake van coming on nicely. Valejo brushed paints, commissioned transfers for Buckley Collieries, lettered with Moidelmasters for the rest. Unfortunately I assumed the Valejho varnish would go on like their paint which produced a very smooth finish in a thin layer. It didn't so the Archibald Bathgate wagon now has a lovely crackle effect finish on one end. So it is going to get stripped with superstrip and repainted. I'm hoping I can limit this to the single end as relettering would be a pain and make the wagon a quite expoensive model.
P7250456.JPG

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Andy W
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Andy W » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:28 pm

Before you reach for the modelstrip it might be worth gently rubbing down the crackled area with a cotton bud to remove the varnish. The area paint stripper affects is difficult to control.
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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:45 pm

Just a cotton bud? That doesnt seem abrasive enough. Cotton bud dipped in something?

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Noel
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Noel » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:11 pm

Not all PO wagon owners were concerned about the look of their wagons, even pre-WW1, so they might not be maintained except at major overhauls or if repairs were essential. Also, even then, wagons weren't cleaned much, if at all. So, could the varnish be disguised by weathering?
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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:31 pm

The effect is a fairly severe polygonal cracking, like a tortoise shell effect, not all over but in a couple of patches. I think I have to clean the end and start again. Should be able to do it whilst leaving the sides intact if I'm careful

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Andy W
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Andy W » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:14 pm

jon price wrote:Just a cotton bud? That doesnt seem abrasive enough. Cotton bud dipped in something?


Yes a dry bud, it has mild abrasive power - just what you need. I cured a mild case of "orange peel" by gently rubbing with them. If that dosn't work try a touch of T cut.
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Lord Colnago
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Lord Colnago » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:41 pm

jon price wrote:Unfortunately I assumed the Valejho varnish would go on like their paint which produced a very smooth finish in a thin layer. It didn't so the Archibald Bathgate wagon now has a lovely crackle effect finish on one end.
P7250456.JPG


Hi Jon,

That's interesting. I assume we're talking matt varnish here. I have two bottles of Vallejo matt and they behave differently from each other. One airbrushes and brushes really nicely, whilst the other is thicker and needs thinning down. I don't know why this should be but it does show an inconsistency in the make up of the varnish. I need to do some varnishing in the near future and I'll let you know how it goes. In the meantime might I suggest replicating what you did before on some scrap plastic, using the same colour paint and the varnish to see if the same thing happens again. If it does, then the varnish may be dodgy, if not, the problem must be elsewhere. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

John.
The second best priest

dal-t
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby dal-t » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:01 am

Lord Colnago wrote: I have two bottles of Vallejo matt and they behave differently from each other. One airbrushes and brushes really nicely, whilst the other is thicker and needs thinning down. I don't know why this should be but it does show an inconsistency in the make up of the varnish

John.


Maybe the 'thinner' bottle is the old Model Air version before the varnishes were 'rationalised' (i.e. made the same!) across the Vallejo ranges? The new ones (I think the change was about 2 years ago) can be applied with a hairy stick as well, so do need thinning for airbrushing.
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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:04 am

Lord Colnago wrote: In the meantime might I suggest replicating what you did before on some scrap plastic, using the same colour paint and the varnish to see if the same thing happens again. If it does, then the varnish may be dodgy, if not, the problem must be elsewhere. Good luck and let us know how you get on.



Tried this out on a piece of plastic. Result was not as bad but there were patches of crackled, plus oidd spots. Maybe this pot of varnish is different, or maybe if I thinned it down with medium it would work. (but does thinned down matt varnish styay matt as the "matting" component will be spread thinner). Luckily two cans of aerosol Testors Dullcote arrived in the post yesterday. Actually sold as "Magician's Roughing Spray" so I'm hoping the effect on my models will be magical.

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Will L
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Will L » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:39 am

jon price wrote:...but does thinned down matt varnish styay matt as the "matting" component will be spread thinner...


Yes it does your still putting down the same mixture of vanish and matting agent, only the thinner increases and that evaporates away. A a general rule I would have said thinner layers of vanish are to be preferred anyway, and they dry quicker with more solvent in the mix. All round good reasons to err in the direction of thinning.

As an aside I am very fond of "flash" thinners which evaporate away almost instantly, so long as you don't over do it so the paint dries on the way to the model, I found these give a good finish and are very useful in shortening the drying time. But I don't do that much painting and I'm still using the cans of thinner brought some years ago and yes I still use enamels. I don't see any mention of flash thinner these days. Have they gone out of fashion, or are we just more sensitive about what we are allowed to breath in these days.

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Lord Colnago
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:17 am

Hi Jon,

The problem you have experienced may well have been as a result of using a thinner that doesn't match the range of paint. I use Vallejo's own thinner and it has been fine up until now. A 3 to 1 paint /thinner mix seems to work.

Testors Dullcote is excellent stuff but I did have an unfortunate experience with it once, which was down to my own inexperience in using it but is, I feel, worth passing on. As the contents of the can diminishes, the propellant/varnish mix becomes propellant dominant. Instead of disposing of the can as it came close to emptying, my inexperience with it, led me to believe that there was still sufficient inside. As the contents were mostly propellant by this time, I ended up with a similar effect to the one you describe. Not a mistake I wish to repeat.

John.
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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

hi John

It can't be the thinner as I haven't thinned it yet, and Ial;ways use Valejo thinning medium with their paints. I agree Will that thin coats are best, but brushing Valejo paints has always produced a uniform thin coat for me so I assumed the varnish would behave the same way. Useful tip about the Testors cans though.Try it on a card first is probably the answer to that.

Jon

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jon price
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby jon price » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:43 am

Acouple more days fiddling about with this train of wagons, including a bit of mucking around with the soldering iron and some Dinghams and I'll be ready to make a mess of the next job on the to-do list: trackwork.Never been this close to something you might call a layout before. Must take deep breaths to avoid giddyness.

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Lord Colnago
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Re: wagons, am I doing this right?

Postby Lord Colnago » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:20 pm

Hi Jon,

Stick at it, every step forward is progress and you're doing better than me!

John.
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