A new prevarication

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jon price
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A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:18 pm

One project obviously isn't enough. Need a break from thinking about 1906 Connah's Quay. So this is a preliminary sketch for a building on the other project. Maybe smaller, maybe more portable, and more modern. But inevitably just as ludicrously complicated. Still P4, which might make it unique. We will see how it goes on.
station.jpg
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hughesp87
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby hughesp87 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:06 pm

Jon,

Not sure if this is supposed to be a guessing game, but that looks rather suspiciously French to me. Am I on the right lines?

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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:43 pm

Well it wasn't intended to be a guessing game, more to show how I (hopefully) progress the project from the first sketches, but here is the motive power so far, a 3F 0-6-0T, and an English Electric/Hawthorne Leslie 350hp diesel-electric, and yes the building is French.
P3200023.JPG
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Noel
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby Noel » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:51 pm

Representatives of both classes went to the WD in 1939/40. Several of both spent most of WW2 in France and some of these never came back.
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:40 pm

You have the project spot on. Early June or late May 1940 near Rouen is the project. Newly laid flat bottom rail sidings and tank ramps. Station uses already completed turnouts which were never used. I'm drawing heavily on unit diaries and WD railway manual, plus some film and photos. I'm hoping that it will be straightforward as the other project is more complex than I thought (though coming on gradually).
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kelly
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby kelly » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:21 am

Sounds an interesting project Jon. I look forward to seeing your progress.
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:38 am

Ah, there is the thing. I posted this because it might encourage me to make some progress. We shall see. I'm waiting for a the war diaries of 150 and 161 Railway Construction Companies to arrive and this should mean that issues of terrain, and building type can be resolved. The station building will be the same outline, but the finish/decoration will vary depending on which line. W.T.Aves' book on WD and the BEF is fine on locos, but a bit sketchy on some other detail. An example is his statement that these companies were at "Elbeuf St. Aubin on the South bank of the Seine south of Rouen". Elbeuf Ville is on the south bank of the Seine, opposite Saint Aubin les Elbeuf on the north bank of the Seine. Both have railways which come south from Rouen. He says "Elbeuf" is the location of No3 Base Area Heavy Repair Shop. Saint Aubin in the most likely candidate, but we shall see. British soldiers were notorious for modifying or misunderstanding local place names In France (I carried out archaeologicalo excavations on a WW1 site on the Somme at Auchonvillers, which the soldiers knew as Ocean Villas) and in any case this will be to an extent representational rather than specifically accurate as a lot of information simply isn't there.
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:25 pm

War diaries have clarified some things, whilst opening up new areas of incomprehension. Some units appear to be excavating gravel to use as ballast on newly laid track. Thought I would try out ballasting a bit of track. Gravel was probably full of finer material but I havn't worked that out yet. Sleepers and track not accurate or painted.
P4120059.JPG

The ballast would be newly laid. These are some samples from the vicinity (I think).
fresh ballast.jpg
older ballast.jpg
trach arques.jpg
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:59 pm

Started before lockdown so not eligible for the challenge. Vans of one of the two Moble Railway Workshops run by 155 Railway Workshop Coy RE in the Rennes and St Nazaire in 1940. No1 Workshop was under the command of 2Lieut William Stanier (son of the LMS CME) at St Nazaire; No2 Workshop, under the command of 2Lieut Thom (from the LNWR Doncaster shops) was at Rennes. The workshops each consisted of two standard SR 10' wheelbase vans and a 32' van. The short vans were converted as a stores van, and a generator van, and the 32' van was radically altered to be the actual workshop, with drop-down and lift-up sides. So far the interior detailing of the workshop van and the generator van has been completed. The drop down sides are in place but the lift-up sides are yet to be fitted. the vans will sit on a siding at the back of the scene/diorama/mini-layout (final form yet to be decided) behind other vehicles and action so are fairly simply constructed. Details of the vans courtesy of the NRM Archive.

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P4130042.JPG

P4130046.JPG

P4130049.JPG
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Terry Bendall
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:50 am

An interesting project Jon. What was the source of the machine tool models please?

Mobile workshops in road and rail vehicles were of course not new and in WW1 workshop trains were built using 2 foot gauge vans about 18 feet long. Quite a lot was crammed in them including overhead line shafting.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

It surprises me that British units were building railways in France in 1940. I see the need for it in 1944, but before the fall of France were there not civilian railways enough that were undamaged and French engineers to build any extra sidings? Also, why were the British building in Normandy when the BEF was elsewhere?

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Noel
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby Noel » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:17 am

They may not have been building so much, as repairing damage done by the Luftwaffe and general maintenance. Much of the British army had been evacuated via Dunkirk by the beginning of June 1940, but some was left in France south of the Somme and continued fighting with the surviving French formations, as did a few RAF units. When the French sought an armistice, these British troops were evacuated via St Nazaire and Brest [and Rennes is the main point of railway access to Brest]. Neither is in Normandy, incidentally. The RE units were probably there originally as the BEF's supply lines were largely through the same ports after the German army reached the sea at Abbeville, as everywhere in northern France as far west as Cherbourg was too vulnerable to the Luftwaffe after that.
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:08 am

The line of supply for the BEF in 1939/40 was via ports westwards from Fecamp, including Le Havre, Caen, Cherbourg,St.Maslo, Brest and St Nazaire, so rail transport was required for all troop movement (initially including going off and on leave) and supply. The rationale was that the closer channel ports were more at risk from direct attack. Really it was logical that British units would maintain British supply lines. All the shunting of wagons needed was done by RE railway units using Jinty's, Diesel Electrics, and Dean Goods and of course these needed maintaining.

The transport of trains along the main lines was initially completely SNCF run, but as crews were trained up the RE began to run some trains using Dean Goods equipped with suitable added air brake and speedometer kit. This was not uniform across the system as the nationalisation was relatively recent and so different regions, which were previously pre-nationalisations companies, had differing approaches. The extra capacity needed for BEF supply meant extra sidings, and these were not necessarily required in the same places as existing SNCF yards, so Railway Construction Companies were needed, and when it came to offloading tanks, such as when 1st Armoured Division was deployed in the battles around the Seine, the same units were needed to build specialist unloading ramps at suitable places. In all at least 25 RE railway units were sent to France

150RCC was building ramps for offloading armour north of Rouen on 4th June at the same time as the last ships were leaving Dunkirk. It was not until the 14th June that the final order was given to attempt to evacuate the last of 100,000 Line of Communication troops from the Loire ports. The Railway Operating companies continued to work evacuating troops westwards with engines being sent out to bring troop trains to the ports as late as the 15th June.

In the final evacuation a number of RE Railway troops were lost in the biggest disaster of the war. The liner RMS Lancastria was loading off St Nazaire on 17th June. Although troopship rated for just over 2000 passengers the captain was instructed to ignore all loading limitations and well over 5,000 soldiers and some civilians were on board when she was sunk by German bombers. It is imposible to know how many people were on board, but only a handfull survived.

The whole story of the troops in France after Dunkirk is not well known. My interest arose because my Uncle was a REME technician in 1st Armoured Division. He left the North coast of Brittany on a commandeered fishing boat around 16th June.
Last edited by jon price on Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jon price
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Re: A new prevarication

Postby jon price » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:19 am

Terry Bendall wrote:An interesting project Jon. What was the source of the machine tool models please? [Terry Bendall


The starting point for the machine tools was the Faller set, (Machine Shiop Interior Equipment 272-180604) which although 1/87 has useful bits. The lathe for instance is pretty well the right size, as is the press, and the bench mounted drill. The rest are bodged together from bits of the set plus some scratch building. Not everything is visible on the existing photos, so some had to be constructed from the plan, plus photos of similar equipment elsewhere found online. Probably best to use "child friendly" searching if you want to work out what the piece of equipment is referred to on the plan as a "screwing machine"
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