wagon building progress.

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:58 am

Well, it has been an excessively long time between updates. In August we went on a cruise which was most enjoyable. Back in the real world, i have been feeding a colony of cats at my work and rehoming them. I brought a lovely little 7 month old kitten home ("Lola") and it turned out that she was pregnant. As a result of this, I had a crazy cat man starter kit occupying my modelling room. Initially I could still do things, but within a very short time they could walk - and play. If I sat down, my legs were attacked. In addition, I enjoyed spending time with them and the modelling went on the back burner. I find that when I put modelling on said back burner it is very hard to get going again. So this first part has been trying to finish a few things that have been half done for a while.

First up is two Parkside- Dundas O11 open wagons. These have Morgan under frames - the offset V type as I have not found an O11 with central V hangers. They have a few other bits and pieces as well as some styrene strip in a few spots. One has the tarp bar up, the other is down. The down one will possibly wind up with a load of timber. Both are likely to be finished with 25" lettering. The 3 plank wagon is the David Geen one I mentioned previously. Etched brake gear and a spare Morgan brake lever finished that off.

The Toad is the recent Hornby model, backdated to a 1919 build AA15 with rod brackets for the steps and split frame windows at the ends but in the high position. This was done by the simple expedient of some 10 thou x 20 though strip across the centre of the window. This will also be done is the 25" lettering style because i suspect it is unlikely to have been repainted by 1923 -1924.

Next up? I still have a V16 and two more 3 plank wagons which I should do before I get some of my Bill Bedford "foreign" wagons done. I currently have 3 x LNWR 3 plank wagons, 2 x LNWR 4 plank wagons and 2 x MR D299 wagons. They will add a bit of variety to things.

I need to do some painting, but the humidity in Sydney is terrible at the moment so the air brush is not being used in anger just yet. My planned visit to the UK this year is off too as my daughter decided to get married. Oh well, there is always next year but in the meantime I am very happy.

Regards to all,

Craig Warton
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RobM
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby RobM » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:26 pm

+1..... :thumb
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

DougN
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby DougN » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:29 pm

They look great Craig,

As I have a bit of a resolution this year to try to finish previously started rolling stock,(you may have seen the coachs on the NER thread, I have a question, How do you find non sprung buffers with the running of the wagons? The trouble I have is I can not find sprung NER buffers and have yet to figure out a way to engineer it at home... rather than a bought in item.

I hope the Sydney weather breaks for you, Melbourne is a little bit baked at the moment. Though as with Melbourne generally we only get 3 stinkers of hot days then it breaks for 3 or so days.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DavidM
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby DavidM » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:44 am

Nice work Craig, hope you can bring them along to the next group meeting in February.

Doug, regarding sprung buffers: My clear preference too is to have them sprung if possible but it's not always the case of course, especially with the self-contained variety. I suspect that we can get away with having a proportion that are unsprung, perhaps a third? Many years ago I was involved in a large P4 exhibition layout in Adelaide which allowed fairly long freight trains run quite slowly and I remember there were quite a few un-sprung wagons, many quite heavy, it didn't seem to detract too much. In fact, if there are a majority of sprung light-weight wagons then things can get a little lively! Smooth running is also of prime importance: the combination of under-weight wagons with sprung buffers and dirty track or poor pick-ups is a potential disaster.

David Murrell

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Guy Rixon
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:23 am

FWIW, I have in my Shapeways shop a print for GWR self-contained buffers that can be sprung using the standard MJT/AGW heads, rams and coil springs. The dimensions were taken from a preserved open at Bewdley (it's in the siding behind the car park, so one can get get close).

The casting of the buffer-guide in the full-sized model is extremely thin at its outer end, so I was unable accommodate a scale 10" ram (2.5mm in 4mm scale, as sold by MJT) while keeping the outside diameter right. Expanding the whole thing wouldn't work as the base would then be too wide for the headstock. Therefore, the print includes 2.3mm collars bored to fit over 1mm rams.

PS: see https://www.shapeways.com/product/GAN6ZLZJK/gwr-self-contained-wagon-buffer-x20

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Will L
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Will L » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:12 pm

Doug

There is practically no wagon buffer that cannot be sprung you just need turned steel buffer heads and the springs to go with them (Wizard Models will provide), a 0,5mm drill and 1mm drill.

Chop of the cast head back to the buffer shank.
Flatten the remaining end of the shank, so you can then as accurately as you can mange by eye, mark the centre point.
By hand using a pin chick or two drill right through the buffer with the 0.5 drill, perfect accuracy is unnecessary, but you do need to go strait enough not to brake out through the side. I can do this reliably by eye. You can set the thing up in a pillar drill and do it accuracy if you must, but I bet I finish sooner than you do,
Using the 1mm drill, drill open up the 0,5mm hole down the buffer shanks so that a buffer head with spring can be compressed down till the buffer head just meets the shank.
Fit sprung buffer head.
Job done.

You don't need to worry that the buffer isn't perfectly down the center of the shanks, you wont be able to tell so long as the hole starts of pretty much dead centre.

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:17 am

Doug,

I have been following your posts. It is heartening to see someone else ploddingb their way though things. Sprung buffers are thing I contemplate a bit. Some items are relatively easy to spring and I do them. Self contained buffers and 1907 RCH wagons (or similar length wagons) are a bit more problematic. Having said that, Guy has kindly pointed out his 3d printed ones - so I shall be pressing the add to cart button shortly. In addition, Brassmasters are developing a sprung underframe for the shorter wagons so....

My layout plans are not grand. I want to build a model of a small through station. I am coming around to the idea of 'imagineering" a D.N.S proposed line running from Highclere to Aldermaston. Running will be trains running through that, with the odd pick up goods if I desire shunting. So, most wagons will just run from one end to another. Non sprung buffers should not cause too big a problem and as I do not plan on anything really tight curve or crossing wise, even propelling should be a non issue.

That is my thoughts anyway, I may learn the hard way. having said that, as Will L points out, spring buffers is not hard and when I can do it, I do.

Currently finishing off a Perseverance W3 cattle wagon. Not much left in the on the go pile now!

regards,

Craig Warton

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iak
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby iak » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:39 am

Very nice mon.
The creative muse has definitely been buzzing. :thumb
Springing ones buffers is, to me, a "marmite/vegimite scenario. You either embrace totally or avoid; all the stock I have done for the 'beastie' resolutely bounces not a millimetre.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
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DougN
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby DougN » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:58 am

Thanks Will, the process you go through is great and I will give it a try. I have a collection of whitemetal wagons I want to put sprung buffers onto. I am trying to standardise on sprung buffers and if possible sprung running gear.

Craig thanks for your comments. I have a similar idea which I am trying not to start! Idea is a small NER based station with platforms for 3 and a bit coaches plus loco. Double track through line starting from the left hand side a road over bridge, in the foreground a passing loop to a mine/ industrial which is off to the left. To the rear is the platforms and the double track. Moving to the the centre is a single slip exit to the loop through another single slip to a 3 way tandem point to the rear is a small good shed and loading dock, the reason why this is all squashed is on the right hand side is the 3 or 4 arch bridge based on the wills viaduct but cut down to be only about 15ft (60mm) above a small beck. Then to the right with the land rising back up to the exit hidden by trees. It will be named "Thistle Beck". The scenic area is going to be about 3600mm long plus either turntable fiddle yards or cassettes. But this requires all the rolling stock to be finished. I have space to keep it but the time has disappeared between work and the now teenagers in the family.

So like you time space and energy can and does get in the way of doing things!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

37431
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby 37431 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:54 pm

Craig, the AA15 Toad looks very good - hard to beleive this is an RTR model with only a little bit of improvement. Can you tell us what you have done to the suspensinon? is it compesated or sprung? I have a need for a few more Toads, and this model looks like the way to go - it will give a quicker result than either the Frogmore etched kits or using the Ratio platic kit as a basis as described by the late John Hayes in MRJ.

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steve howe
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby steve howe » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:43 pm

37431 wrote:Craig, the AA15 Toad looks very good - hard to beleive this is an RTR model with only a little bit of improvement. Can you tell us what you have done to the suspensinon? is it compesated or sprung? I have a need for a few more Toads, and this model looks like the way to go - it will give a quicker result than either the Frogmore etched kits or using the Ratio platic kit as a basis as described by the late John Hayes in MRJ.


Same here, :thumb Kernow have a limited edition 20T Toad branded 'Penzance' by Bachmann, just what I need, so I'd be interested to know how you sprung/compensated yours.

Steve

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:57 am

I did not look at the forum for a couple of days and there are comments. My bad!

It would be nice to explain how I managed to fit springing to the Hornby Toad, But I didn't. I had to grind the w-irons out from the inside, and knock the ends off the axles to fit them in but it is rigid. Will it work? I honestly do not know.

I found the greasy plastic to be a bit of a pain and to be honest when I do a second one I will use the Morgan Design underframe and make it fit.

If you are after a quck conversion then follow the approach I used. I am pretty pleased with it but I do have concerns about such a long rigid wheel base. Opinions from others are very welcome here.

Regards,

Craig Warton

John Palmer
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby John Palmer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:07 pm

One possible way of giving some flexibility to the Toad's suspension would be to fit one of Mike Trice's Wagon Compensation Units at one end. Currently OOS in Scalefour Stores, but seems to be available from Dart Castings - http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2291.php.

I've been very impressed by the quality of some of Hornby's recent output - well pleased with the Maunsell cattle wagon I acquired a couple of months ago, which ran nicely just with the substitution of P4 wheelsets. Unfortunately this leaves the clasp brakes an unacceptable distance from the wheels, but the Masokits Maunsell 8 shoe fitted brake gear I just purchased should address that issue satisfactorily.

dmsmith
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby dmsmith » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:48 pm

I couldn’t resist buying a Hornby Toad when they first came out. I cut out the central section of the underframe and inserted conventional MJT rocking w-irons, with D&S brake shoes and Ambis brake pull rods. I also replaced the step boards because I had removed the fixing points for the originals when I removed the underframe.

The attached are rather hastily taken photos, but hopefully they show that there is sufficient clearance. The van is destined for Chris Lamacraft’s Hemyock, so is in EM. My preferred solution would always be the Morgan chassis available from Scalefour Stores which is a joy to make, runs very sweetly and includes the full brake gear.

Hope that helps!
David
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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:27 pm

David,

Many thanks indeed for that. I wanted to do a "quick" P4 conversion using a RTR item because the TOAD is one of the few RTR items that legitimately fits into my early 1920s period. I do not have sufficient experience or running to know if such a long wheelbase item will function satisfactorily as a rigid wheel base in P4.
I have two more of them, which I think will use a Morgan chassis. I might see hw this one goes and rebuild using your sensible approach that I should probably have gone down the first time!

Regards,

Craig

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:49 am

Time for a small update on things. I am continuing to whittle my way through the started and put aside pile and valiantly resisting the temptation to start something new. Sort of anyway.

First up is a Perseverance W3 small cattle wagon. Can I just say the brand is well named? There is nothing very wrong with the model, it is more that the fit of things is not really up to the standard I expect and I have had to do a lot of fiddling and fettling of things. I have enjoyed building the kit, but I am also glad I can only justify one of them.

Second up is a Mallard Loriot D. I am sure I can hear some people sniggering already.

So, what have i discovered? The Loriot D is actually two diagrams - the G1 and the G14. The G1 had lever brake, whist the G14 had DC brakes. The kit can build either version, at least according to the instructions. There is no brake gear for the G1 and the DC lever for the G14 is included but it does not have the outside clasp brakes. I am doing a G1, so will be fabricating the lever brakes from left over Morgan design parts.

There are two problems though - the platform are 2' rather than the 1' 10" of the G1, yet the length is 26'6" rather than the 27' of the G14. The answer is obvious... the well is only 14' rather than the 15' of the real deal. In addition, there are no holes in the side sills. Something I did not realise until they were in place. Taking them off again to drill holes in when the thing is still fundamentally wrong seems a little pointless. In addition, the buffer height is too low - almost as if the passenger rated Loriot with 3'7" wheel GA in the GWR wagon plan book was used as inspiration. I am not sure how to correct the buffer height yet, but the other issues are beyond correction so I must try and live with them. Those of you who have an unbuilt Loriot D (David B are you reading this?) be warned.

W3 and Loriot D.jpg


Thats it for the moment, more to follow.

Regards,

Craig W

John Palmer
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby John Palmer » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:51 am

The absence of the roping holes in the Loriot's sills is a great shame, as these were such a distinctive feature of several GW-designed machinery wagons. All is not necessarily lost, however, as Jim Russell's 'Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons' carries, at fig. 85, a picture of Loriot D 42046 without the roping holes, with lever-actuated brake as catered for on your model.

Actually, I'm a bit puzzled by the choice between diagrams G1 and G14 for the Loriot D, because the G14 drawing in my copy of Atkins et al's 'History of GWR Goods Wagons' shows G14 as the diagram for a DC-braked Loriot M with self-contained buffers.

Your model's frame shape seems to have the rounded bottom corners shown on the G14 drawing in Atkins, whereas the frames of the G1 are shown as having a straight edge from the outer hornways up to the headstocks. Looks like Mallard could have provided a bit more assistance by way of a guide to the differences and the modifications to their product that would need to be made.

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David B
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby David B » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:50 pm

Craig Warton wrote: (David B are you reading this?)


Oh yes, Craig, and I am ahead of you! I have even got them painted. The tractor is a Clayton Shuttleworth from WD Models, the same place I got the Clyno motorcycles from.

The small cattle wagon is a lovely kit to make but there are one heck of a lot of bits to put on the doors. It is a very good kit to use the RSU on with all the strapping.

The Loriot is fairly straightforward though it does sit a bit low so that needs correcting. I also need to complete the lettering.

Nice models, Craig, and good additions to your collection. What's next?

W1-Loriot_G3113.jpg

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:09 am

Funnily enough John, the photo you mention is the one I am using as a sort of guide. I think that might be a late modification but I shall convince myself that it was earlier. I fitted the lever brake today and it looks rather nice now but I shall be glad to see the end of it!
Of course, I then look at the post from David and find he has his finished already! So I need to get cracking and finish this and the W3 to catch up.

I am looking through the WD models list with a view to purchasing something for the Loriot. There is a photo in the GW wagon tome of a Loriot carrying a trailer which is loaded with timber framing...looks tempting.

Does anybody have suggestions for chain and also some clearer photos of how they were secured to the wagons?

Whats next?

Continuing through my not finished pile I have an N8 and N4 horsebox, a Parkside van, two more 3 plank wagons and a SBM ballast hopper to finish off.

After that lot (don't you just love confidence?) I would like to do an Iron Mink or two. Or I could finish off my 517 and 3232.

More to follow....

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Colin Parks
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:20 am

Hello Craig,

Those wagons look very neatly made. Re. the buffer height, would it be possible the slot the side frames and drop the axle bearings by 1mm? That would raise the wagon by about the required amount. Granted, the axle boxes would then be located closer to the bottom edge of the W-irons, but the ride height would be much improved.

All the best,

Colin

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:46 am

Colin, after reading your comment I had a look at the wagon to contemplate things. After that, I looked at the drawing again and noticed that for some reason the buffer height on a Loriot D is actually 3' 3". So the buffer height is actually fairly close to correct and I am a goose for not double checking things.

The goods news is that apart from going out for lunch, I did a little more on the Loriot and fitted the brake lever.

_DSC8070.jpg


Slowly getting there!

Regards,

Craig w

Philip Hall
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Craig,

I think you will find that the Hornby Toad will run OK without any suspension added. You seem to be using Ultrascale wheels which are true and round, which helps no end with a rigid vehicle, and there is a degree of movement in the bearings which will sort out most things. If not, there are two easy options: one is an inside bearing MJT rocking unit at one end; or installing the little springing units in the existing W irons that (I think) Masokits sell. I haven’t tried the second option but have some in stock one day to try. An important part of keeping such a long vehicle on the deck is the weight, so I always bring a brake van up to about 70 grams or so.

Talking of wheels prompts me to mention that several knowledgeable GW folk have pointed out to me that GW Toads always had 10 spoke wheels, not 8. Or occasionally in later life, three hole. I had no idea so am now making sure mine are correct!

Philip

billbedford
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby billbedford » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:44 am

Philip Hall wrote:Craig,

An important part of keeping such a long vehicle on the deck is the weight, so I always bring a brake van up to about 70 grams or so.


So you increase the weight so that the plastic distorts and equalises the weight on each wheel and so keeps the wheels on the track?
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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Philip Hall
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:21 am

70 grams will not distort any plastic underframe that I have seen or built, and certainly not one built as solidly as a RTR moulding. The weight is there for stability, because in my experience, too little weight results in too little stability. And yes, I have observed sprung vehicles with little weight, and compared them with sprung vehicles with a reasonable amount of weight, say 50 - 70 grams, and they do have a nice motion to them, but I prefer the appearance in motion of the heavier vehicles of any persuasion. Light ones just don’t look right to me.

Another side to this is that if the vehicle is too light a loose coupled train just jiggers along and looks dreadful. Even weight cannot completely sort this one out, and the only real solution is preventing the vehicles from being too free running, which is not very practical if you want a decent length train. Having a slightly heavier brake van can help, which is why I do it. And also because I do not want to spring or compensate if I don’t have to, which I don’t, a lot of the time.

I would also say that I like to run passenger trains of reasonable length, properly close coupled, but also close coupled to the engine. I have found that the best way of stopping the buffering or gangway forces from heaving the body of the vehicle off the tracks over curves is to have the stock heavy enough to overcome the buffer forces. Yes, I know that primary and secondary suspension will help with that, but I don’t want to do that when I have thirty or forty vehicles to deal with in a reasonable timescale.

Philip

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:35 am

Hi Philip,

Your friends are correct that the Toads do appear to have had a 10 spoke wheel - but also 3' 2" diameter too just to complicate things.

I am not sure if you can get a standard wagon wheel in 10 spoke form, so I shall have to live with the 8 spoke wheels. You are correct that I use Ultrascale wheels usually. I will just keep my fingers crossed that all will run ok. I suspect though that if I am reasonably careful with track laying things should be alright.

I weight my 4 wheel wagons to around 40 grams - it is harder to weight a 1907 RCH size wagon to much more. I try and keep the weight to be about the same for all wagons though I think there is merit in weighting the brake a bit more to minimise the jiggers as you described it.

Time to get back to the workbench. 830pm here!

Regards,

Craig


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