wagon building progress.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:18 am

There's a summary of common-user agreements in an appendix of Great Western Wagons, Atkins et al.

Bulwell Hall
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Bulwell Hall » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:01 am

Craig Warton wrote:Gerry,

Thanks for the kind words.

This may sound slightly familiar to you, but I am very interested in the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line. The period around 1923-1924 is the period I am modelling at which time the DNS was home to things like Dean goods, 3232, Stellas and Dukes. Suffice to say that I have examples of all to build after I finish a few more wagons.

But, I am not telling you anything you do not know about the DNS already!

Regards

Craig


I rather thought it might be the D N & S railway and you are right - it is a subject close to my heart! One of the smaller passing stations with their distinctive red brick station buildings set amongst the Hampshire downs would make a very evocative model and I look forward to seeing progress. As an aside I was around the back lanes of Hampshire myself in early summer last year and came across this sign - it was fifty five years since the last passenger train had passed by but the station building still stands - albeit now converted to a dwelling.

Keep up the good work!

Gerry

057.jpg

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jayell
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby jayell » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:09 pm

I have family connections with Burghclere, my grandmother having died not far from the station and was buried in All Saints Churchyard. I travelled the line from Winchester to Burghclere with my mother, sister and after 1943, my young brother many times in the 1940s when visiting family in Ecchinswell, our luggage would be transported by the local carrier but we would have to walk the lanes to great-Aunts cottage in Mill Lane

John Lewis

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Flymo748
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:13 pm

Flymo748 wrote:I have seen the results of a pre-Grouping wagon survey that has exactly this sort of information. Annoyingly, I can't think for the life of me where it was!

It may have been Bob Essery's excellent book on railway operations, so I'll have a look tonight when I'm back from work. I have a feeling that it was a survey done somewhere like Gloucester, so there was a preponderance of GWR wagons, but also some well-travelled ones, such as GER and NB.

I'll see what I can dig out, and post the results. It will be a useful reference point to have on the Forum.
Cheers
Flymo


Well, I've had a look, and I'm afraid that it's not in the book that I was thinking of. I'll keep digging!

Cheers
Flymo
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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:07 pm

Flymo,

There was a series in Model railways sometime in the mid 1970s on keeping the balance - could that be the one you mean?

I was looking through the GWR goods services book yesterday and one of the captions noted that in 1920 the ratio of open wagons to covered vans was 4:1 though this had dropped to 2:1 by the mid 1930s. I cannot imagine that things were too different from 1920 to 1923, so I have to build a few more open wagons.

regards,

Craig W

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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:36 am

It was with more than a little shame that I noted a very considerable period of time has passed since my last update.

In truth, my determination to try and stick with things rather than flitting around almost brought me unstuck. I was building 2 x Coopercraft 4 plank wagons and a David Geen 3 plank wagon. For some reason, everything that can go wrong did and the builds were very frustrating and not enjoyable. The 3 plank wagon wound up being thrown against a wall. Not quite, but it sits in the cupboard while I compose myself to try and go a different approach. Suffice to say that the dimensional variation between the Morgan Under frame and the white metal body was more than a little bit of a pain. The 4 plank wagons use the sides and ends and nothing else. I had to do different door bangs springs for them as the ones in the under frame kit are the wrong type for older wagons. So is the lever guard for that matter, but I ignored that on one of them. The other one has a guard made from an etch I commissioned a few years ago. I enjoy fiddly things but bending these things up is not fun. These two will be fitted with timber loads and tarped purely because I like the look of it. The other two wagons are the Mousa Models kits. They are perhaps a little unlikely even in the early 1920s but i like the look of them and they are nice kits. Bill deserves support for such a venture.

In other news, I had a splurge on bookshelves and cupboards at Ikea and my modelling area is now much more ordered than it was previously. I hope to make a start on a layout over Christmas (famous last words).

Finally, I won a Mallard Steam Railmotor kit a few months ago and when it arrived I found it had no castings or instructions. "Someone" from this forum sent me the Instructions and then brought all the castings I needed - as well as some other items I had a yearning for. They were also mailed to me - in Australia before I even sent the money to cover this. All I can say is thank you and show my appreciation for a n extraordinary act of generosity.

Now that I have broken my wagon hoodoo I am feeling much more optimistic and am about to start another 4 wagons. These will be one more Parkside van and 3 of their 5 plank opens. I expect these to be smoother sailing too.

Regards,

Craig W

_DSC4937.jpg

_DSC4936.jpg

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iak
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby iak » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:51 am

Very nice too Craig.
How do the Morgan underframes stack up?
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Craig Warton
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:16 am

iak wrote:Very nice too Craig.
How do the Morgan underframes stack up?


The instructions are massive, but a little verbose and not all the diagrams are helpful. But having said that, the etching is very good and they go together extremely well with the general fit of parts being very accurate. The under frame is sprung at one end and fixed at the other. They seem to run ok where I have tried them but when I get something more substantial done (over Christmas!) I will find out more. I like the one stop shop nature of them too. I cannot say I really enjoy going through and having to work out the location of each and every bit of brake gear and they make that part simple.

Regards,

Craig W

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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby garethashenden » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:49 pm

iak wrote:Very nice too Craig.
How do the Morgan underframes stack up?


The underframes are very good, but the instructions aren't. There is one set of instructions for all the underframes, so you have to go forward and back throughout the instructions to figure out what to do. I feel like a little bit of copy and paste to separate them to different instructions for each underframe would be a great improvement.

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iak
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby iak » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:20 pm

Thanks gents
I think I had better be feeling a lot better afore I tackle the ones I have.

Slàinte
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Bulwell Hall
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Re: wagon building progress.

Postby Bulwell Hall » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:38 am

    Craig Warton wrote:It was with more than a little shame that I noted a very considerable period of time has passed since my last update.

    In truth, my determination to try and stick with things rather than flitting around almost brought me unstuck. I was building 2 x Coopercraft 4 plank wagons and a David Geen 3 plank wagon. For some reason, everything that can go wrong did and the builds were very frustrating and not enjoyable. The 3 plank wagon wound up being thrown against a wall. Not quite, but it sits in the cupboard while I compose myself to try and go a different approach. Suffice to say that the dimensional variation between the Morgan Under frame and the white metal body was more than a little bit of a pain. The 4 plank wagons use the sides and ends and nothing else. I had to do different door bangs springs for them as the ones in the under frame kit are the wrong type for older wagons. So is the lever guard for that matter, but I ignored that on one of them. The other one has a guard made from an etch I commissioned a few years ago. I enjoy fiddly things but bending these things up is not fun. These two will be fitted with timber loads and tarped purely because I like the look of it. The other two wagons are the Mousa Models kits. They are perhaps a little unlikely even in the early 1920s but i like the look of them and they are nice kits. Bill deserves support for such a venture.

    In other news, I had a splurge on bookshelves and cupboards at Ikea and my modelling area is now much more ordered than it was previously. I hope to make a start on a layout over Christmas (famous last words).

    Finally, I won a Mallard Steam Railmotor kit a few months ago and when it arrived I found it had no castings or instructions. "Someone" from this forum sent me the Instructions and then brought all the castings I needed - as well as some other items I had a yearning for. They were also mailed to me - in Australia before I even sent the money to cover this. All I can say is thank you and show my appreciation for a n extraordinary act of generosity.

    Now that I have broken my wagon hoodoo I am feeling much more optimistic and am about to start another 4 wagons. These will be one more Parkside van and 3 of their 5 plank opens. I expect these to be smoother sailing too.

    Regards,

    Craig W

    _DSC4937.jpg
    _DSC4936.jpg


    Lovely work Craig - I especially like the two GWR four plankers which are particularly characteristic of the period.

    Gerry

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:14 am

    Thanks for the kind words Gerry, I have to admit that the 4 plank wagons are a particular favourite of mine.

    I have been reading through the open wagon section of the GWR wagon book yet again, and it notes that over 18000 4 plank wagons were modified with extra brakes. This, to my way of thinking, means they must have been a massive part of the GWR open wagon fleet even in the early 1920s. On that basis the two other Coopercraft kits and the ABS one may need to be added to. I am currently working on 2 x Parkside O11 opens and another Parkside van. The latter is because I commissioned Fox Transfers to produce "Ventilated Van" and the early NCU markings and I want to use some of them!

    Regards,

    Craig

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    Dave K
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Dave K » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:40 am

    Craig Warton wrote:Thanks for the kind words Gerry, I have to admit that the 4 plank wagons are a particular favourite of mine.

    I have been reading through the open wagon section of the GWR wagon book yet again, and it notes that over 18000 4 plank wagons were modified with extra brakes. This, to my way of thinking, means they must have been a massive part of the GWR open wagon fleet even in the early 1920s.

    Craig,

    Some years ago I was given a copy of the Summer 1979 edition of the EM Gauge Society 'journal' called "the Marshalling Yard". It had an article by a Roy Miller about modifying the CooperCraft wagon then available. On the 4 plank it gives details of various brake modification that were carried out to these wagons. Some were fitted with DC1 and the modified version and even two that were fitted with DC3, after being trailed with the Thomas patent brake system.

    So you have plenty of variants to go, if you so wish.

    Dave

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:53 am

    Dave,

    i must admit to having a "thing" about four plank wagons. The proportions of them just look right to me so brake gear variations are as good a reason as any to have more. I fear that with the scarcity of the Coopercraft model I shall be indulging in a spot of scratchbuilding. In which case it will be waiting until I have a few more kits out the way.

    I have started work on a further 3 wagons. They will all be using the Morgan offset V DC3 underframe and I have been working on these at odd moments over the last few days. The basics are nearly done and then comes the brake gear. Two of these will be unfitted O11 wagons and the other will be a vacuum fitted V12-14-16. Not sure what yet, I just want to use my new Fox Transfers. I had a look through photographs and am not sure that any of the O11 wagons had a central V hanger, so I have made an executive decision that they will have off set V (if all of that makes sense). Another one I have been mulling over is to try and remove the diagonal bracing and modify one (or two) to a wagon with curved feet diagonals of Diag. O3 or O9. Watch this space.

    The other photo is something different. Several years ago I had a (Finney) Dean Goods, curved frame Bulldog and 1854 Pannier built by John James. They were not exactly cheap, but John did a splendid job on them. The problem for me is that I have always felt a little detached from them. They are basically expensive RTR and I do not really have any emotional connection to them. I realised a while ago that I needed to to a few things to them to make them more "my" style and to make me feel connected to them. The Dean Goods has been the first cab off the ranks and I have started to redo the weathering to make it more like the things I have built. The tender and loco have had a bit of polishing on the green areas and more weathering on the black areas. I applied black powder over the coal to matt it down as real loads of coal do tend to look matt. I also applied a selection of large lumps of coal. Tender coal in the 1920s had a lot of big bits in it! This afternoon I put a bit of Wilder "Murky waters" on the back of tender to simulate water overflow. Still to come is an Andrew Stadden crew, a tarp on the cab and some of the wonderful Modelu loco lamps with the correct code for a goods train of course.

    Thats about it for the moment. More to follow when the real world allows progress.

    underframes.jpg
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    Guy Rixon
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:22 am

    The effects around the water filler look very realistic. I especially like the overflow of coal slack, which seems always to be present even on very clean engines (e.g. modern SVR), but is often missed on weathered models.

    These "Murky Waters": they are a special kind of varnish?

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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Bulwell Hall » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:04 pm

    Thanks for posting the photo of your Dean Goods Craig - it is looking very good. I should like to see more photos of it when it is complete and you are happy with it. One comment if I may - there was a drain hole on the top of the tender tank near the manhole so that overflow water would drain quickly away - water and coal dust is highly corrosive to steel plate so they didn't want it hanging around. The coal load though looks very effective with a tender full of dust and crud and a few large lumps - very typical!

    Attached here for interest are a couple of photos of my recently completed Dean Goods. She uses Hornby/Mainline plastic bodies on High Level loco and tender chassis. The engine chassis was expertly built by Karl Crowther whilst I built the tender chassis and did the rest - incidently it cannot be over emphasised how good the High Level chassis kits are and the running of this engine is superb! Many of the fittings on this model were replaced with castings from the Martin Finney Dean Goods kit now availiable from Brassmasters - I am delighted with her. She is photographed working - somewhat inappropriately - on a layout "somewhere in the West of England" where she ran smoothly and quietly with out any fuss with around twenty wagons - very satisfactory.

    20161128_170641.jpg
    Shunting - but where is the crew?

    20161128_163057.jpg
    Standing in the 'down' refuge siding.

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:22 am

    Guy, the Wilder "murky waters" is indeed a type of varnish with a tint. Like a good number of the military modelling products it is very good indeed - as are all the Wilder powders and washes. As Gerry very politely pointed out though, one should not be seduced by pictures in weathering books and it would have drained away rather quickly. I am in the process of reducing the impact of it as we speak! Modelling reality rather than modelling other models is the term that comes to mind.

    Gerry, That Dean Goods is simply gorgeous. The combination of a High Level chassis with a good RTR body is indeed an excellent combination. If I did not already have a second Finney kit I would certainly go down that path. Considering the age of the model, the Dean is a very good model and the excellent work you (and Karl) did works wonders. The other thing that strikes me and I am becoming painfully aware of, is how good a model looks with some track and scenery. That layout (somewhere in the west of England!) is also very nice too. If it is the one I think it is, then it is a personal favourite too.

    I have included a photo of my Dean as she currently stands. I based her on the lovely photo of 2486 outside Old Oak Signal box in GWRJ number 13. I have been buffing up the green a little to give a bit of the sheen that shows in the photo. She still needs a crew, the tarp, headlamps and a little more work before I will be truly pleased..

    Regards

    Craig
    Dean goods.jpg

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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Bulwell Hall » Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:50 am

    Thanks Craig - I am pleased that you approve of my Dean Goods. I also completely understand what you mean about models looking so much better in a setting and with that in mind, once certain local difficulites have passed, I shall be returning to my Maiden Newton project in the New Year with a view to getting all the remaining track down and hopefully working!

    My comment earlier about the layout on which the photos were taken was a little ambiguous. Whilst the layout is located 'somewhere in the West of England' it is a model of Churston station - in an area where Dean Goods were not usually seen. And don't tell anybody but it's actually built to EM gauge so really shouldn't be on this forum!

    Gerry
    Last edited by Bulwell Hall on Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    James Wells
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby James Wells » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:29 am

    The treatment of the coal on your Deans Goods looks really nice Craig!

    It really spoils models when they have a shiny load of coal and that looks just right on yours!

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:09 am

    I was supposed to go to my area group meeting today however domestic circumstances conspired against me. It did, however, give me a chance to get some modelling done later and most importantly update my workbench which I have shamefully ignored.

    I wish I could regale those who this with tales (and photos) of my many new models. Such is not the case sadly. We had a stinking hot summer and what should have been loads of modelling time over Christmas turned into loads of time in the pool. As many will know, it is hard to get back into things once the momentum is broken.

    When I did get back into things I decided to continue with my 5 plank wagons and also a David Geen 3 plank wagon. The latter went from a simple task to an absolute pain in the sitting spot. Simply put, white metal kits with shrinkage do not match up with a fixed underframe. All i did was get more annoyed and in the end I gave up in disgust. So, I took the cheats way out and soldered 3 of them up, whitemetal W-irons and all. The three of them are still a work in progress with the photo showing how much more is to come.

    The 5 plank wagons are from the Parkside- Dundas range. They are both 011 non fitted wagons, with DC3 brakegear and offset V-hangers. looking through photos, i could not convince myself that any 011 or 015 wagons have central V hangers so i shall stick with offset ones for others that i build.

    The wagons are to my usual spec: Morgan Underframe and Ultrascale wheels. The buffers have been replaced with Lanarkshire models ones. I have to complete the tarpaulin bars and a few other details to have the pair ready for painting but I now have a few wagons to paint. I have another couple of GWR wagons in progress and then I may have a bit of a change and build a few Bill Bedford LNWR and MR wagons.

    The second photo is of a curved frame Finney Bulldog. This was built for me a couple of years ago but the tender footplate was built to the highest level with the result that the fall plate was on a 1 in 30 grade!

    I know one should get such things fixed or such, but I am not really emotionally attached to the models I have had built for me. They are sort of like expensive RTR and I have the same lack of passion about that. So, dive in and fix it! that is sorted now and just needs painting. Also a crew and a tarp and lamps. Then I will feel like it is mine.

    I promise to be more diligent in attending to my work bench in future. Fingers crossed, I may even be coming to Scaleforum in 2018. My wife suggested I should take a few weeks to go and play trains in the UK and how on earth can you pass a chance like that up?

    Regards,

    Craig W
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    iak
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby iak » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:43 pm

    Nice wagonage... :thumb
    I trust the mojo keeps going mon...
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    kelham
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby kelham » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:34 pm

    I'm not intimately acquainted with the Brian Morgan etches but could your problems with the Geen 3-planker have anything to do with the fact that the prototype was only 15' 6" long. Trying to fit a 16' underframe under one of those would be a sure source of grief!

    When will you be starting on the huge tranche of LMS and LNER wagons? :)



    Richard

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:10 am

    Hi Richard,

    The difference in length was easily solved by reducing the length of the (brass) floor. The wagon has a 9' wheel base, but the casting and the brass disagreed on how long 9' actually is. The castings simply would not match and the nothing I tried could make it line up properly. I was not happy with the results, no matter what I tried so I saw no point in continuing.

    I am modelling 1923-1924 and suspect I need a good number of wagons in pre- grouping liveries rather than in LMS-LNER livery. I have just received a few D299 wagons from Bill Bedford and they and a few other wagons will happen sooner or later.

    At the moment I am doing some work on the Hornby AA15. Might be a updat on that tonight, my time.

    Regards,

    Craig W

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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby kelham » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:19 am

    You can't go wrong with a few D299s in your yard! I should perhaps have put LMS and LNER in inverted commas as of course all the wagons are likely still to be in their pre-group livery – much more fun. As you're doing the DN&S you could have rather more LSWR wagons than the bald statistics would suggest.

    From memory (I can't find the offending article) I built my Geen kits using Exactoscale sprung units aligned more or less with the ironwork on the kit castings. It came out as near 9' as makes no difference, which, lest that sound like heresy, means fractions of a millimetre. Coincidentally my other 3-plank wagons are scratch built.

    The Morgan etchings look interesting...

    Keep up the good work


    Richard

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    Craig Warton
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    Re: wagon building progress.

    Postby Craig Warton » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:28 am

    I had a moment of weakness a fortnight ago and order a couple of the Hornby AA15 Toads.
    Of course, Hornby chose to do the later foot board mount version and to be a purist I really do need the earlier rounded type. Ignoring things like that does not really work for me (tried!) so I started fiddling about on Friday night. Rather typically, things are never as easy as you think and things sort of take a life of their own.

    I fashioned the replacement brackets from 0.5 mm brass wire and made them 7mm long - a dimension that was given in the Southwark Bridge AA3 instructions. The plastic that has been used on the under frame is one of those horrible sorts that does not take glue readily. i discovered this when I tried to fix the new brackets into position. Many swear words later I resorted to melting them into place which seems to have worked. The buffers looked undersize to me so I replaced them with some ABS cast ones. I will be replacing the chimney and trying to modify the end windows to look more a bit more like the earlier types as they seem to be the later of the single frame version.

    The van will be repainted and finish up in the 25" GWR livery and allocated to Didcot which seems more likely for a van used on the DNS.

    Two updates in quick succession, wonders will never cease!

    Richard, I posted this as you were typing it seems. The pre - post grouping bit is what I find interesting about 1923-1924 and why I decided to model that era. I also like the appearance of GWR stock and locos around this time too. I have a few LSWR wagons on the go at present and they and a few others will be done once I have a few more of the GWR wagons done. I may try another system for a few 3 plank wagons and see how I go with them.

    Should also get the D299 built. They are a good place to start for foreign wagons!


    Regards,

    Craig W
    AA15-2.jpg

    AA15-1.jpg


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