Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:01 pm

Hi John, :)

Derek was wondering if I could make a video of Grayrigg, but I had already started on a complete reconstruction and thought it unlikely I could have it finished and be able to make the video in time for the date he was needing it. Pity as it is a good idea. Maybe sometime in the future.

Yes I had a major disaster last winter. We had a storm which damaged the flat garage roof and quantities of water came in. Grayrigg was quite badly damaged and fortunately Dubbieside, which is on a lower level, survived OK. The roof has been professionally replaced and the interior repaired by myself.

The Grayrigg layout has two levels, the lower has a down and an up storage yard which feed through to an upper level which has Grayrigg modelled and a scene on the climb to Shap at Scout Green, there was planned to be a further scene as yet to be modelled, although the trains run through it coming and going from the lower levels.

When the damage was done I maybe rushed to dry everything out and perhaps should have used a de-humidifier and then gentle heat. Instead I dried what I could and left the heater on all night - in the morning when I walked in it was like a sauna! Further inspection showed that most of the upper boards at one end of the garage had warped quite badly and the lower ones also showed signs of damage. A big sigh and I closed the door and decided that I would make an attempt to recover it at a later date - I was busy building my new exhibition layout at the time and expecting to have to have it ready for Scalefour North earlier this year.

However Covit arrived and turned my year upside down - so I decided to stop work on the new layout as it would not be needed for a while and instead spend maybe six months and completely rebuild Grayrigg. I am about three months into the re-construction and in the process I am lifting all of the track, replacing all of the foam underlay, which I have never been happy with and replacing boards where necessary and relaying on top of a new cork base.

My method of construction allows me to take all the scenery off as well as signals buildings etc. and the top boards unhinge from the lower boards to allow access to the lower track. Everything is held together using bolts or hinges. The up and down storage yards will be finished I hope by Sunday and then I am going on to the upper layer where there has been most damage to see what can be done to the main station scene. I am assuming another two months dealing with that and a final month reworking the rest before the scenery goes back on I will probably test run it with the trains. If all goes well it can be returned to normal running by Easter I hope.

Fortunately I had taken all the trains off before the storm hit and had them in my studio in the house, so no damage there. I am taking pictures as I go along and will put them up somewhere. It is allowing me to include a few improvements as I go along. I will not put them up here John as this is your interesting thread and I do not want my present difficulties to be a distraction from what is a very nice thread indeed. :)

Allan :)

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:49 pm

Sounds like you've turned a disaster in to an opportunity, I look forward to seeing the results...

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:31 pm

Hi John :)

Yes I am hoping it will turn out OK. The intention of the layout design - and considered from the beginning, was to allow for maximum flexibility and ease of alteration. It was always intended that alternative scenic treatment would allow for other lines or companies to be portrayed, without the need to build yet another layout. After all more than two thirds of layout construction are spent on baseboards, track, wiring etc. and only, if that, one third spent on scenery. My Intention was to build Grayrigg as that was what my son also wanted to build - he has a good number of 1960's diesels - and I would build the steam locos for the layout. When the layout was complete as Grayrigg then a separate scene altogether would be created as an alternative - I had hoped to do something based on the Waverley Route as I had a Scalefour Model museum in Melrose Station during the 1980's, so once the repairs are done I hope to do something about this.

The track plan is not exactly what was at Whitrope Sidings just beyond the entrance to Whitrope tunnel, but a possible variation (a what might have been there with two loop provision and a couple of short sidings. Of course I cannot call it Whitrope Siding (which was its title in real life) as it had only one refuge siding, but I hope to call it Whitrope Summit Box - this I am sure will cause no end of confusion, but I will still try to capture the essence of the place! Both routes saw many of the same types of engines and I can also add some of the locos I have run on Dubbieside over the years. I even have some NBR locos and stock for an alternative service - this layout could keep us happy at home for years to come so worth the few months investment being put in now.

Allan

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:35 pm

The latest wagon on the bench, a cut and shut of a couple of old Triang Trestrols to produce a Trestrol EC as per Brian Self's article in Snooze 176. Wheels from Keen Maygib, buffers from Lanarkshire Models.

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:44 pm

A few more 16T wagons for my scrap train. These are out of the box Bachmann versions with simple wheel and coupling swaps and then a good weathering.

I'll admit, possibly heretically that, for wagons like these that form a long train, I'm not too concerned about whether they are the correct diagram and whether the TOPS panels are exactly right either. I'm building a layout that, eventually, will swallow well over 100 wagons with ease, super detailing everything is simply impractical if I ever want to finish the layout so I have to be pragmatic - if they look OK from 3 feet away, I'm OK with it..

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Last edited by John Donnelly on Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:00 am

John Donnelly wrote:
I'll admit, possibly heretically that, for wagons like these that form a long train, I'm not too concerned about whether they are the correct diagram and whether the TOPS panels are exactly right either. I'm building a layout that, eventually, will swallow well over 100 wagons with ease, super detailing everything is simply impractical if I ever want to finish the layout so I have to be pragmatic - if they look OK from 3 feet away, I'm OK with it..



Glad to see you back in the groove John, layout and wagons looking good. Quite agree with the above. Problem is with a kit built wagon, when or if you have to put the numbers etc on yourself, you have to do something at least half credible - or cover up what might not be with some convenient weathering!

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:47 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Glad to see you back in the groove John, layout and wagons looking good. Quite agree with the above. Problem is with a kit built wagon, when or if you have to put the numbers etc on yourself, you have to do something at least half credible - or cover up what might not be with some convenient weathering!


Thanks Julian. I'd hope that the TOPS codes would, at least be correct but if the number I use was actually on a diagram 146/A and my wagon is a 146/B (numbers made up) then that doesn't bother me.

Locos are, however, a completely different thing and I will only number locos after those that I have photographic evidence of on the Consett line and, more specifically, between South Pelaw and Consett.

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Noel
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Noel » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:34 pm

John Donnelly wrote:I'd hope that the TOPS codes would, at least be correct


MCV for vacuum fitted 16T minerals, MCO for hand brake only. Never air braked, so no MCAs.
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Noel

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:55 pm

At least the ones in the photo are all MCVs. :)

Out of curiosity, what’s the significance on the MCV 16t rather than just MCV?

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Noel
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Noel » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:24 am

Rather outside my period, but I think it dates from the period when BR were going metric. "t" is the commonly used symbol for UK imperial long tons of 2,240lbs, metric tonnes of 1,000 Kg or approx. 2,200lbs (and US short tons of 2,000lbs), not particularly conducive to clarity. BR used "T" for load capacity on its wagons until the national change to metric units for many purposes, so I presume it's been added to distinguish the two for loading purposes during the changeover, when staff might be faced with either system.
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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:04 pm

Thanks Noel. I suspect then that the one I have marked as MCV 16t is a bit anachronistic then as it’ll be used in a train from 1982.
Last edited by John Donnelly on Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Triode
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Triode » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:54 pm

Excellent looking wagons. Is the scrap they're carrying from the demolition of the Consett steelworks by any chance? I'm sure I've seen photos of 16 tonners being used while that was going on.

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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:17 pm

Triode wrote:Excellent looking wagons. Is the scrap they're carrying from the demolition of the Consett steelworks by any chance? I'm sure I've seen photos of 16 tonners being used while that was going on.


Thanks.

Indeed it is, here is a photo of the real train I'm replicating, 37062 passes South Pelaw Junction with a scrap train heading for Tyne Yard (26 April 1982) Photo copyright Stephen McGahon, used with permission.

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The photo also demonstrates one of the problems in modelling the location. Even over the course of 10 years, the track plan changed considerably as unused track was lifted. As I want to run a selection of trains from 1966 to closure, I've had to make a decision on the track and have decided to include everything that was there in 1966 with a couple of small changes to the signalling, which will be correct for the model but not exactly the same as the prototype.

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Noel
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Noel » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:38 am

Given the 1983 date, it is quite possible that some of these MCVs are 10ft wheelbase on 17ft 6ins underframes. In the mid-1970s BR built almost 400 "new" vacuum fitted Coal16s by fitting new Diagram 1/099 style bodies [rounded bottom corners to the bodies and no top doors] on redundant Palbrick chassis, which had either 4-shoe Morton or BR 8-shoe clasp brakes and, in some cases, roller bearing axleboxes. The number series for these was B596000-393.

Diagram 1/099 was the standard body for rebuilt Coal16s from the early 1970s [earlier rebodies had top doors although still with the rounded bottom corners to the body], and, as well as on unfitted wagons, was used on previously unfitted chassis rebuilt earlier to 4-shoe Morton VB, and to rebody wagons built new with, or already converted to, BR 8-shoe clasp, including the rivetted 1/109, the only rivetted chassis ones so treated, and the experimental Westinghouse air braked 1952 batch converted to BR SAB 8-shoe clasp brakes after the trials.

Info from Part 3 of Peter Fidczuk's article in Modellers' Backtrack 1991.

It's impossible to tell whether any are 10ft wb from the photograph owing to the angle, although it is possible to say that those with tiebars are 4-shoe Morton, and those without are probably 8-shoe clasp, and all the bodies except one are Diagram 1/099, the odd one out presumably being a slightly earlier rebody, as the original body would not have lasted that long.
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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:20 pm

Thanks again Noel.

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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:12 pm

Time to start the conversion of the Dave Bradwell Iron Ore wagons from OO to P4. As I've mentioned before there was no way to get the existing wheels out for a straightforward conversion so the decision has been made to cut them out.

Image

So plan is:

1. Slit the OO axle.
2. Do the same with a set of P4 wheels.
3. Cut a length of tube with the correct inside diameter to match the diameter of the axles.
4. Add the P4 wheels and slide the tube over the cut and glue in place.
5. Almost certainly have to move the brakes.

Repeat 36 times in total...

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Simon_S
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Simon_S » Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:55 pm

Would cutting a vertical slot at the bottom of one of the bearings give you enough clearance to get the P4 wheelset in?

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:24 pm

Simon_S wrote:Would cutting a vertical slot at the bottom of one of the bearings give you enough clearance to get the P4 wheelset in?


I'd had given that some serious consideration after Allan had mentioned it but, with the bearings and inside frames of the bogies being brass with the outer frame/axle boxes being white metal, I'm concerned that it will be too easy to do some damage when the cutting implement goes from one material to the other, especially with 72 of them to be done, the chances of me not making a mess at some point are not in my favour...

I have 9 wagons to do so I'll see how I get on with this method on the first one. I'm confident that it will work and my only real concern is maintaining gauge on the wheels while the glue sets...

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Triode
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Triode » Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:37 pm

Good luck with this John.

When it comes to setting the gauge while the glue sets, is your preferred B2B gauge a suitable size to leave in place during this process? This is how I maintain the gauge when making up Exactoscale wheelsets. The gauge I use is a Pac-Man shaped thing which looks like it might fit in the space available if the secondary springs on the bogie were removed. (EDIT - There's an image of one here: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wheels/loc407/ )

If you are using Gibson wheelsets you would need to check that the inner surfaces of the wheeels are flat and flush before attempting this method, as the central palstic boss sometimes protrudes around the edges. This can be seen on the 00 wheelset in your picture which looks like a Gibson.

Cheers,

Liam

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:09 pm

Thanks Liam.

The gauge I have is the standard L shaped one but it looks like the 'Pac Man' one would be far more suitable in this situation so thanks for the link, I'll get one ordered.

John

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Will L
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Will L » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:01 pm

John Donnelly wrote:
Simon_S wrote:Would cutting a vertical slot at the bottom of one of the bearings give you enough clearance to get the P4 wheelset in?


I'd had given that some serious consideration after Allan had mentioned it but, with the bearings and inside frames of the bogies being brass with the outer frame/axle boxes being white metal, I'm concerned that it will be too easy to do some damage when the cutting implement goes from one material to the other, especially with 72 of them to be done, the chances of me not making a mess at some point are not in my favour...

I have 9 wagons to do so I'll see how I get on with this method on the first one. I'm confident that it will work and my only real concern is maintaining gauge on the wheels while the glue sets...

You make the slot with the edge of a triangular needle file applied at a slight angle so you file through the bottom edge of the bearing and not the top edge. Generally you can get enough clearance to spring the wheels in without ever cutting in to what ever the bearing is sitting in. This is a simple filing job with no real danger of damaging anything else, I would have thought cutting through an axle was far more likely to cause collateral damage and leaves you with issues about regauging the wheel set and wobbly wheels because the axle is slightly off strait once you've finished.

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John Donnelly
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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:33 pm

Thanks for that Will.

I'm not averse to giving it a try but there is zero give in the bogie sides so, as the very least, the slot would have to go in to the inner frames of the bogie, not just the bearings.

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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:52 pm

Well, thanks to all who have replied to this issue since I first brought it up a few months ago.

I've just given Will's suggestion a try and was able to open a slot just enough to pop a set of wheels in :thumb I guess it's one of those jobs that seems so straight forward and easy once you've given it a go...

Now to find a use for the brass tube I've already ordered :mrgreen:

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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby Triode » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:31 pm

That's good news. :thumb

I take it the wheelsets don't fall out of the bogies when they're lifted up? That would have been my main concern with this method.

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Re: Wagons for South Pelaw Junction

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:45 pm

Triode wrote:That's good news. :thumb

I take it the wheelsets don't fall out of the bogies when they're lifted up? That would have been my main concern with this method.


No, they stay in quite nicely.


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