Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Daddyman
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Daddyman » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:16 am

Le Corbusier wrote: If this level of lining is acceptable for you, then it might be worth an experiment :thumb


Surely it would be acceptable to anyone? Some very good advice re practising too.

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:30 am

Daddyman wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote: If this level of lining is acceptable for you, then it might be worth an experiment :thumb


Surely it would be acceptable to anyone?


That is kind of you to say ... the danger is one always tends to compare ones own efforts to the likes of Rathbone etc .... I have the right track DVD and watching him line is pretty daunting :shock:
Tim Lee

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Paul Willis
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:12 am

Daddyman wrote:People have problems with clogging in Bob Moore pens, but there are enough good results out there to show that they can work with the right consistency.


I must admit, I'm a big fan of the Bob Moore pens and wouldn't use anything else for lining.

It does take a few minutes practice to get your hand back in after I've not done it for a while. However the two things I pay particular attention to are:

1. the thickness of the paint, which does have to be thicker than your expect; and

2. using a drop of lighter fluid to let down the surface tension. I don't know why, but it seems to work.

Both of these points are in the instructions.

As a subjective point, I think I'd be in the school of using "buff for gold" faced with that dilemma. Think how gold something really would be when it was thin and viewed from a (scale) 300 feet away.

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Paul
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:39 am

OK, thanks chaps. Yes, Tim's lining is very nice and I'd be happy with that. The line thickness is about what I can get with the funnel pen, so I may go back and try that first with enamel paint before trying the bow pen. Not sure if we have lighter fluid here at home, and I'm not going near shops at present, so may try and work out what the secret sauce is to moderate the tension; we have a range of other chemicals in stock that must be worrying MI5. I have a precision tinlet intended for LNWR goldish lining, so shall try that.

Enigma
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Enigma » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:25 pm

Cheap lighter fuel available in pound shops - for £1.00. I bought a couple of tins end of last year. The 'proper' stuff from a 'Smoker's Requisites' establishment was several times dearer! I use for lots of things - but not thinning paint!

Yet......................... ;)

Terry Bendall
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:32 am

I have not used a Bob Moore pan for a long time but the use of lighter fuel certainly works. I have in the past tried a bow pen and certainly there is a need to oilstone the end so that it is smooth. The paint consistency needs to be "just right" and that can only be judged by experience. Having a piece of scrap black styrene to hand to test consistency or line width before working on the model is useful. The technique of using a small brush with thinners to tidy op a line also works well

Terry Bendall

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Le Corbusier » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am

just seen the price of a Bob Moore lining pen on the Phoenix/Precision web site :shock: :shock: :shock: must be completely out of touch .... thank the lord for junk shops and fettling old bow pens :thumb Can you vary the thickness on a Moore pen, or do you need multiple pens similar to the old rotring drafting pens?
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Paul Willis
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:45 am

Le Corbusier wrote:just seen the price of a Bob Moore lining pen on the Phoenix/Precision web site :shock: :shock: :shock: must be completely out of touch .... thank the lord for junk shops and fettling old bow pens :thumb Can you vary the thickness on a Moore pen, or do you need multiple pens similar to the old rotring drafting pens?


Morning Tim,

There are three different heads for the Bob Moore pen. They give differing thickness lines, similar to the Rotring Isograph pens, of which I still have a couple sitting in the pen pot by my left elbow.

You're right - the Bob Moore set is expensive, and having acquired one some years ago, I look after it carefully. I also keep an eye open on eBay in case I can pick up a spare set cheaply, just in case ;-)

But there is an alternative that seems identical in construction and operation - the Easi-liner. It is also under half the cost!

Bob Moore: https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/lining-and-sundries/moore

Easi-Liner: http://www.mylocosound.co.uk/?page_id=12

The easi-liner doesn't seem as well "engineered" e.g. it doesn't seem to have a screw-adjustable ball-jointed head angle. But in principle, I don't see why it shouldn't deliver just as good results - the fundamental mechanism seems the same. I say that without trying one, so this advice is worth what you paid for it, but to me the set looks like being worth a punt.

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Paul
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Neil Smith
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Neil Smith » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:43 pm

Paul Willis wrote: But there is an alternative that seems identical in construction and operation - the Easi-liner. It is also under half the cost!

Bob Moore: https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/lining-and-sundries/moore

Easi-Liner: http://www.mylocosound.co.uk/?page_id=12

The easi-liner doesn't seem as well "engineered" e.g. it doesn't seem to have a screw-adjustable ball-jointed head angle. But in principle, I don't see why it shouldn't deliver just as good results - the fundamental mechanism seems the same. I say that without trying one, so this advice is worth what you paid for it, but to me the set looks like being worth a punt.


Hi Paul

Word of warning, there have been posts on here saying the Easy Liner's narrowest line is still too wide for 4mm work. For example see this thread including 3rd post down from Jol Wilkinson...

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5807&p=60185

All the best

Neil

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Paul Willis
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:38 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Hi Paul

Word of warning, there have been posts on here saying the Easy Liner's narrowest line is still too wide for 4mm work. For example see this thread including 3rd post down from Jol Wilkinson...

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5807&p=60185

All the best

Neil


Thanks Neil - I'd forgotten that discussion. Living down to my own motto that the internet is truly a write-only medium :-(

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Paul
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:35 pm

The brake arrangements have been sorted out. The brake coaches have this:
pull-pull-rigging.png


All the other coaches have this:
push-pull-rigging.png


I have products for both arrangements on Shapeways and will modify my model when the test-print for the new one comes back.

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Noel
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:00 am

Where was the handbrake linkage on the brake coach?
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Noel

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:26 pm

27ft-handbrake.png

The handbrake wheel was high on the end wall of the coach, driving a vertical shaft through bevel gears. The bottom of that shaft drove a crank under the headstock and that crank pulled a rod connected to the centre crank (or at least to some other crank on the same shaft as the centre crank).

The handbrake pull-rod passes through the space where the brake push-rod wants to be.

The guard is expected to work the handbrake while on his high seat behind the birdcage window. This rules out a normal handbrake column on the van floor.

The brake arrangements were common to all the 27' coaches from the 1894 series through to the SECR's last order in 1901. In that time, they happily changed the frame material, the wheelbase, the spring linkages, and the lighting, but not the brake rigging, so one presumes they were really fond of the brake design.

PS: the handbrake linkage is not yet on my model of the brake coach because the supplied casting is not very good and I haven't got around to printing a replacement. When the full-size copy of the HMRS drawing arrives then I'll draw and print it. Some means will be needed to separate the vertical shaft on the body from the crank on the underframe. Probably, the vertical shaft will be a wire that plugs into a loose hole in the crank.

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Noel
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Noel » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 pm

Thanks.
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Noel

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:57 pm

IMG_8186.JPG

Lining: achieved. This is with the Bob Moore pen, Precision "LNWR lining tan" from a new can, and chemical coercion with airbrush cleaner to ensure paint flow.

Jol reckons that a decent bow-pen does a better job and I'm sure that is right, given an expert user. The Moore pen is more my speed for now, at least for the special case of lining the edges of mouldings. The Moore pen is also good at going round the tight corners, which a bow pen would not like.

There are some lines missing from this lining scheme, and I need to go back to photos for reference. I think there should be some lines on the vent hoods, and possibly around the bolections. The former would be really hard to do and I may leave them off; or I may just line around the edges of the vents.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:18 pm

Having sorted out the painting, lining and lettering to a standard I can live with ...

IMG_8188.JPG


...I've turned my attention to the rest of the train, of which this is most but not all.

IMG_8194.JPG


Most of these coaches are fossil models that are being refurbished: one of the thirds I built in 1988, the brake-3rd is c. 1990, and two others I bought part-built on eBay. Only the 4-compartment coach on the right is new build. However, the old models will serve to illustrate the buffing and coupling when I get that far.

The two coaches from eBay came with rolled, brass roofs, which is normally considered a Good Thing. In this case it was a mixed blessing. The edges of the roofs were not to the right profile and would be a pig to correct. Rain-strips and gutters would be harder to add than with the wood-paper-plastic roofs. And the castings for the vents and lamps were not all that.

In fact, the roofs have been bothering me for a while. It's quite a lot of work to fettle the wooden armatures that come in most of the kits, and fairing in the edges is messy, witness the putty'd nightmare in the photo. So I thought perhaps I could print roofs for at least the bought-in coaches.

Initial tests were favourable: the etched ends of the coaches are true half-ellipses, making it easy-ish to draw up the roofs. It was also possible to print in situ all the roof furniture, including the rain-strips (I hate adding these from separate strip), a better approximation of the gutters, and versions of the lamp tops and ventilators that please my eye. The big problem was warping: one end of each test-print wanted to curl up.

A little reading showed that resin prints are counter-intuitive: they curl most readily when thick slabs are included and stay flat when all the parts are thin. Apparently it's to do with different curing rates of the resin. My curly roofs were solid slabs with embossed detail. I changed them to annular ellipses with bracing and they then printed without distortion. Allegedly, no wall in a resin print should be more than 2 mm thick, and I made the structural roof 1.5 mm.

The resin roof in the picture has a little bow throughout its length, and I need to find out how to get rid of this. It was flat when the print was washed and has started to bow in post-curing, having spent this morning sitting in the sun. It may flatten out when the other side cures. Failing that, I'll print in slots for metal reinforcements and force it flat while the glue is drying.

The roofs, BTW, are a good example of when to buy a printer larger than the Mars Pro. They are ~5 mm longer than the print bed and have to be done at an angle. It takes much, much longer.

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Will L
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Will L » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:24 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:...Initial tests were favourable: the etched ends of the coaches are true half-ellipses, making it easy-ish to draw up the roofs. It was also possible to print in situ all the roof furniture, including the rain-strips (I hate adding these from separate strip), a better approximation of the gutters, and versions of the lamp tops and ventilators that please my eye. The big problem was warping: one end of each test-print wanted to curl up.

A little reading showed that resin prints are counter-intuitive: they curl most readily when thick slabs are included and stay flat when all the parts are thin. Apparently it's to do with different curing rates of the resin. My curly roofs were solid slabs with embossed detail. I changed them to annular ellipses with bracing and they then printed without distortion. Allegedly, no wall in a resin print should be more than 2 mm thick, and I made the structural roof 1.5 mm...
What if you printed a flat inner ceiling joined to the roof proper at the sides and with one or two length wise ribs connecting the two? With any luck, it would form a pretty rigid structure.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:10 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:
Will L wrote:
Guy Rixon wrote:...Initial tests were favourable: the etched ends of the coaches are true half-ellipses, making it easy-ish to draw up the roofs. It was also possible to print in situ all the roof furniture, including the rain-strips (I hate adding these from separate strip), a better approximation of the gutters, and versions of the lamp tops and ventilators that please my eye. The big problem was warping: one end of each test-print wanted to curl up.

A little reading showed that resin prints are counter-intuitive: they curl most readily when thick slabs are included and stay flat when all the parts are thin. Apparently it's to do with different curing rates of the resin. My curly roofs were solid slabs with embossed detail. I changed them to annular ellipses with bracing and they then printed without distortion. Allegedly, no wall in a resin print should be more than 2 mm thick, and I made the structural roof 1.5 mm...
What if you printed a flat inner ceiling joined to the roof proper at the sides and with one or two length wise ribs connecting the two? With any luck, it would form a pretty rigid structure.


Yes, that could work. It could still curl while post-curing, but if it cured flat it should then keep its shape. C.f. the design I've got at present which will still be slightly flexible when cured. The trade-off is between something that can be pushed flat when finally glued in place and something that stays flat by itself, but only if it happens to cure in exactly the right shape.

PS: the bowed roof has been sat with its top in sunshine and is gradually flexing back to lose the bow. The process has been interrupted by a snow shower.

Winander
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Winander » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:39 pm

Guy,

I take it you don't have something to cure other than that big thing you can sometimes see in the sky? I have just read that, in addition to UV curing, heat "enables even more complete bond formation, resulting in increases in material properties impossible to achieve with light alone." (https://formlabs.com/blog/how-to-post-cure-3d-prints/). That site provides only a summary, requiring registration to obtain a white paper - which is undoubtedly better than just another web page :)

My train of thought is along the lines of faster and better curing may prevent/minimise warping, but I haven't looked into it.

Thanks for the useful warning about the size build platform.
Richard Hodgson

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:56 pm

Richard, I've got a desktop UV source for curing the smaller prints. Most of the fittings were force-cured that way, but I've found that it tends to accentuate the curling up rather than fixing it. A more uniform light-source might improve matters. I haven't tried heat, but will consider it.

In fact, curing slowly in sunlight on each side alternately seems to have made the roofs behave. I've printed roofs for most of the train now.

IMG_8211.JPG


I need to remake the roof on the brake-3rd at the back to improve the fit. I may replace the wood/paper roof on the brake next to the engine to get a finer result.

In other news, it emerges that the colour I've mixed may be closer to the post-1910 livery, whereas coaches in 1909 would be redder. Not changing these now, but I shall adjust the shade when I start painting mainline stock. Careful lighting of the eventual layout may help.

Alan Woodard
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Re: Socially-distanced challenge: SER 27' close-coupled stock

Postby Alan Woodard » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:01 pm

Beautiful work Guy. Thats gorgeous.


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