Assorted NPCS

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Guy Rixon
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Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed May 27, 2015 12:48 pm

My projected layout, which is set within rock-hurling distance of Covent Garden market, needs lot of vans to carry fruit, veg and flowers. The SER (and LCDR and SECR) built passenger-rated vans for their "Grand Vitesse" service and these were basically luggage vans with louvre ventilators.

Exhibit A is a SER GV van built from a Roxey Mouldings kit.

GV-van-1-edited.jpg


I built this back in the early '90s, shortly after the kit came out. It languished for decades while I fretted about livery and details, which are uncertain. Recently I decided to finish it anyway, to best-efforts standards. I wanted to prove to myself that I could actually finish something in passenger livery; and anyway I needed the shelf-space for other unfinished projects. These days I'd aspire to a better standard of build, and I have another of these on the go.

Notable points are the paint and the lettering, the latter using the Fox Transfers product. The colour is what comes out of a tin Phoenix-Precision "SECR coach lake". It's very purple. This clashes with the old-school advice that SECR lake is Midland coach lake with a tiny amount of blue. I'm undecided on whether this is right for my period (1908), but I guess I need to get it consistent across my fleet of coaches and vans. The lettering is the SER scheme, copied from the GA drawing sold by HMRS, but with the company initials updated to SECR. I don't have any historic evidence of how the SECR did it, so minimal change to the old way seems the best guess. The later vans had "Grand Vitesse Luggage Van" splashed on the side, but there's no room for it on this diagram.

The lining (which is not very good, but looks OK-ish at normal viewing-distances) was done with a Bob Moore pen and Exactoscale* gold ink. This is a profanity-limited exercise. The pen is good and the ink is good - excellent covering and colour density - but they are barely compatible. The metal particles in the ink tend to clog the pen and the ink tends to separate in the pen's reservoir if I load too much. Also, the line is too wide using the medium nib; it really needs a fine nib (which I don't have). Currently it's the best I can do, but a re-think may be needed.

The buffers, which are sprung, use MJT heads/rams running in printed bodies from my own CAD design. The bodies are similar to the wagon buffers about which I wrote elsewhere on this site.

(*The ink is hoarded from the Weller and Cross era of Exactoscale. C&L don't sell it. Unless we all petition Pete L.)
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri May 29, 2015 6:02 pm

Exhibit B is the Monstrosity.

monstrosity-processed.jpg


This is one of the GWR's three big CCTs to P16, built in 1911. Later Monsters were similar, but had inside frames for the body.

I built this last year from a Mailcoach kit. Originally, this was going to be a quick, build-as-designed exercise, but it turned into semi-scratchbuilding and took a while.

The kit has many problems: only the sides and roof are useful as given. The ends are 2mm too wide, don't match the roof profile and the moulded-in headstocks are solid, not channel. Much hacking and altering. The underframe detail is all wrong - angle-iron trussing instead of queen-post bar trussing, inaccurate gas tanks, missing the brake pipe along the solebar, etc. I rebuilt it from scratch, in brass, which was a lengthy but enjoyable activity. The bogies are plastic non-functional but the sides worked as overlays on proper bogies ... which are modified from MJT frames to be rigid units with simple, secondary suspension. Buffers are by MRD and transfers are HMRS.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:04 pm

Over the last few days, I've been motivated to finish off a Midland fruit van that has been sulking in the back of the cabinet for half my life. Flymo's post on a similar vehicle finally got me back to it. Both are from the Slaters kit, but mine is the D364 version,with passenger-rated suspension, larger wheels and vacuum brakes, whereas Flymo's is the D361 version with small wheels and hand-brake only; and his is better built than mine.

mr-fruit-van-2.jpg


I originally built my van back in the '90s when Exactoscale released suspension parts for the Slaters kit. It stalled for a while while I failed to build clasp brakes, then I managed acceptable brake-gear shortly after the millennium. Brush painting was attempted and rejected, and it went to the back of the cupboard. Around 2006 I got an airbrush and got some Precision Midland Grey onto it. I tried to apply the transfers that come with the Slaters kit and they fell straight off - twice. Back to the cupboard, and there it stayed until last week.

Finally, I've tracked down some spare transfers and got them to stay on long enough to be fixed with varnish. The larger transfers are fairly well behaved, but the small numbers are very uncooperative. The method in the transfer instructions (place the transfer, wet with Meths/water mix, press into place, leave 15 minutes, then remove carrier paper with water) does not work; the transfers either float off when the water touches them or drop off as they dry out. What I eventually did was to over-wet with the Meths/water, remove the carrier immediately (like waterslide transfers), allow to partially dry for at most 5 minutes and then spay varnish. I used Railmatch varnish (satin because I'd run out of matt; I may top off with matt when I can get some) and it seems to have lacquered on the transfers successfully.

Other work recently was to add the ventilators to the roof, paint and fit the roof and to scavenge a brake lever and rack. The latter, which I have still to fit, came out of a PC models kit for another MR fruit van. If I did another of these Slaters kits, I'd use the Bill Bedford fret of levers. Still to add are couplings, when I can find some.

mr-fruit-van-1.jpg


The running gear is from the old FASS system by Exactoscale (not the Exactoscale products currently sold by C&L). The wheels are either Gibson or Maygib on the FASS adaptor-axles and the bearings are the parallel kind rather than pin-points. The brakes I don't entirely remember; possibly they are by Exactoscale, but they're certainly not Slaters. The working bits are built on a false floor to let me fiddle with the FASS details outside the wagon. I have one more set of these FASS parts for this kind of vehicle and I will use them if I can get another Slaters kit.
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Paul Willis
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:35 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:Over the last few days, I've been motivated to finish off a Midland fruit van that has been sulking in the back of the cabinet for half my life. Flymo's post on a similar vehicle finally got me back to it. Both are from the Slaters kit, but mine is the D364 version,with passenger-rated suspension, larger wheels and vacuum brakes, whereas Flymo's is the D361 version with small wheels and hand-brake only; and his is better built than mine.


<ahem> I very much doubt that. And yours is much closer to being finished than mine. I must whip out the airbrush in the next few days and have a good go at finishing some of these models off. They are cluttering up the top of my workbench at the moment!

Cheers
Flymo
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Will L
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Will L » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:06 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:The method in the transfer instructions (place the transfer, wet with Meths/water mix, press into place, leave 15 minutes, then remove carrier paper with water) does not work; the transfers either float off when the water touches them or drop off as they dry out.


Not sure what has been going on here, but I've found that old Methfix transfers, including the ones that used to come with Slaters kits still go on working as intended. Methfix are my favourite type of transfer. They do need to be firmly pressed down, and you need to use your fingers as they stick to cloth or paper and that pulls them of again. They dry in a lot less than 15 minutes too.

Old Pressfix transfers do stop working with age, but I understand that can be used as Methix transfers at that point.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:33 am

Will, yes, I know that Methfix transfers ought not to go bad with age (although maybe 20+ years is asking a bit much), but I'm definitely seeing a repeatable problem with the small numbers only. It can't be a single, bad sheet as I've been through four different ones on this van.

I'm guessing one of:

1. Not pressing down hard enough with my fingers; maybe I should press again when the transfers are partly dry and less likely to move around under pressure?

2. Too much meths/water mix on the job so that all the glue washes off.

3. Too little meths/water mix, so the glue is not activated and the transfers only stay on while there is a water film to provide suction.

4. Applied over matt paintwork, so too many tiny air-bubbles for proper adhesion.

I have spare transfers from the LMS part of the sheets, so I could do some experiments. But this is a profanity-limited exercise, so must wait until my wife is away.

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MarkS
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby MarkS » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:06 pm

In my experience, number 4 is the culprit. The small numbers don't have enough area to stick properly on a matte surface.
What I do in this situation is to paint on some clear gloss where the numbers go and patiently try again...
Of course you can always sharpen up a white pencil if all else fails.
Cheers,

Mark.
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Will L
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Will L » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:10 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:..
2. Too much meths/water mix on the job so that all the glue washes off.

3. Too little meths/water mix, so the glue is not activated and the transfers only stay on while there is a water film to provide suction.

I must admit I've often wondered about this as I tend to keep a bottle of premixed meths/water for a long time and the concentration (presumably) changes (gets weaker) over time, but never enough to affect their use apparently. I assumed this meant the concentration wasn't at all critical.

You can wash all the glue off, but that usually only happens to me if I try and reapply one I've applied and removed once already.

4. Applied over matt paintwork, so too many tiny air-bubbles for proper adhesion.


That I did wonder about, as some mat finishes do seem to have significant non stick properties. Whether for the reason you suggest or for some other I'm not sure.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:37 pm

I need some of the earlier GWR fruit-vans. Later lots of diagram Y2 were basically V5 wooden Minks with more ventilation that a normal Mink A. I had a Cooper craft kit left over that I didn't particularly want as a V5, so decided to convert.

The body is as per the kit, with vents carved at the top of the sides and bonnet vents added to the ends, from 0.010 plastic card. The side vents are only along one plank in this variant; c.f. earlier Y2 where every plank had vents.

IMG_2365.jpg


The chassis is nothing like the V5, having clasp brakes, vacuum fitted, 10' wheelbase and 3'6" wheels. It will all have to be fabricated anew, starting with the Bill Bedford axleguards.

IMG_2372.jpg


My current method for these is to mount them on a brass floor cut as wide as the axleguards and as long as will fit into the wagon, so as to have somewhere to mount the clasp brakes. The scribed lines in the photo mark the centres of the axleguards. I've filled out notches to clear the top of the spring carriers when the suspension goes to full travel.

The axleguards are the "RCH 1907" kind rather. "RCH NPCS" would be a better match to the 3'6" wheels, but they have the spring mounts further out and there's no space in this vehicle. I shall just mount the floor higher in the van to take account of the larger wheels.

IMG_2374.jpg


The fibre soldering-mat is useful for fixing the axleguards. The pins keep the axleguard aligned with the floor across the width of the wagon and I fixed the longitudinal alignment by eye using the scribed line and the apertures in the axleguard. This seems quite accurate enough to me without using a wheelbase gauge. I soldered them along the long edges of the axleguard units.

Bake parts will come mainly from a Mainly Trains etch that I got on eBay. However, I need to get the handbrake levers from somewhere else, as Y2s didn't have the DC brake-handles. I also need to get a vacuum cylinder (GWR moving-cylinder type) from somewhere.
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby allanferguson » Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:37 pm

Re Transfers, I have quite a large collection of transfers, both pressfix and methfix, and all quite old. I apply both sorts with Transfix (from C & L) and I haven't had any problems with them falling off; many are applied on a matt surface, but still seem to stick OK, though I agree the point about air bubbles makes sense. But I wouldn't be without my bottle of Transfix (other makes are available!)

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri May 06, 2016 8:50 pm

After a few days with no modelling, I got the brakes onto the fruit-van chassis.

IMG_2607.jpg


The brake parts are from the Mainly Trains fret for DC brakes, assembled pretty much as per instructions. They include the linkages for the brake cylinder, but not the cylinder itself.

GWR experts will immediately see the hideous mistake, which I only spotted when looking at the GA to find the cylinder diameter. In these early, fitted vehicles, the brake cylinder was mounted centrally along the length, not the V-hangers; the latter were significantly offset. So the hangers and brakeshaft and brake pull-rods all had to come off and be re-done.

Second time round, I made up the brake cylinder, hangers and brake shaft as a sub-assembly.

IMG_2608.jpg


The cylinder is just 6mm brass tube, with a "lid" from scrap brass off an etching fret and a length of 0.5mm brass wire for the cross-beam. Yes, the cylinder is taller than the scale height of the real thing. The excess height will be hidden behind the solebar. It was easier to extend the cylinder to meet the gain floor than to model the unseen bits accurately.

The linkages are from the MT fret. Note that the member linking the two V-hangers had to be cut away to clear the base of the cylinder.

I got the brake gear back onto the chassis tonight before packing in. Photos tomorrow, when I've done the safety loops.
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby dal-t » Sat May 07, 2016 8:09 am

I'm another of those with a large collection of 'senior citizen' transfers, both railway and aviation, and until recently I've belonged to that happy band who have never had any trouble with decal-softening solutions. I've also merrily applied lettering to dead-matt surfaces and left it unvarnished, although I have noticed that after 30-odd years some wagons treated in that way have become nicely 'weathered' of their own accord. However, fresh from an unpleasant experience with Microsol and disintegrating squadron codes on a WWII interceptor, I feel moved to offer an alternative method for transfer application, which if not utterly foolproof certainly works reliably for a four-thumbed fudger like me. It's a 3-stage process for any type of transfer on any type of surface and it uses only one substance (other than the transfer) - Johnson's Klear (Pledge/Futur/etc). Step 1, apply two coats of Klear, allowing each to harden fully to provide a hard, smooth surface. Step 2, release the decal from its backing either with water, diluted meths or pressure, according to type, and float into position on a third coat of Klear. Again, allow this to dry/harden fully. Step 3, apply an overall (fourth) coat of Klear to seal the decals (if deemed necessary, this coat can contain Tamiya flattening agent (but no more than 30%). Again it should be left to harden fully, after which any other (duller?) varnish of your choice can be overcoated, or additional weathering can take place. So, just to make that clear - Klear, Klear, Klear (sorry, I'll get me coat - simply couldn't resist on a sunny May morning ...).
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat May 07, 2016 2:11 pm

David, thanks for that recipe. I'll try it. To be (*cough*) completely clear about it, you apply the decals to a wet coat of varnish?

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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat May 07, 2016 2:16 pm

In other news, I got the brake safety-loops onto the fruit-van chassis.

IMG_2612.jpg


I used brass wire because the strips included in the brake-parts kit were too short. The wire is probably over-scale, but I think it will look OK when painted. That completes the soldering of the chassis and the next thing is the solebars.
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby dal-t » Sat May 07, 2016 3:59 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:David, thanks for that recipe. I'll try it. To be (*cough*) completely clear about it, you apply the decals to a wet coat of varnish?

Guy, yes, but timing is all here. I personally release the decal first, roughly in position, then apply the 'varnish' over, around and under it, finalising the placing but not, as you would with water or decal solution, pressing down with a tissue or cloth. Bearing in mind Klear goes on non-sticky, very much like water, and only begins to 'stick' as the polymer starts to cure, I usually hold the decal in place with the brush I've used for application, until I'm confident there isn't going to be any movement. Since the drying involves shrinkage, the decal is pulled down onto surface detail just as with a softening solution. If there is any 'silvering' of waterslide transfers left afterwards the final coat should eliminate it. You do have to remember to be gentle with the brush at all times, or you provoke the persisting bubbles for which Klear is notorious.
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:52 pm

Currently hovering near the workbench is another Y2 fruit van. Unlike the one I bodged from a Coopercraft kit (which is still waiting for its solebars), this one is originally a David Geen (ex GWW) kit.

IMG_5197.jpg


The sides and ends are from the Geen kit, unmodified, and I also used the foot steps, vacuum cylinder and cranks, vacuum pipes and lamp top from the kit. All the other details are sourced elsewhere.

The axleguards are MRD parts, arranged with one fixed and one rocking axle. This van originally had MRD's torsion-bar springing which sort of worked but wobbled badly. As discussed on another thread, the wobble indicates lack of damping and is rather hard to fix after the vehicle is assembled. Hence retro compensation as plan B, using the same components.

Axleboxes are by MJT. The ones in the kit are OK, but they are cast with axleguards and springs and it was easier to fit separate, fresh parts which I had in stock.

The springs are printed, from my own design. This particular batch illustrate a design problem in that the bases of the spring hangers against the solebar are too thick. They are actually modelled to scale, but are joined in the print to a sprue, and the spring shackles break if I try to file away the remnant of the sprue. The super-thick ones here are as clean I could get them and don't look too bad at normal viewing-distances. The springs are available in my Shapeways shop and I've fixed the spruing to make them easier to use.

I was going to use the cast brake-lever and guard from the kit, but it was really badly flashed and broke while I was trying to clean it up. Hence a new brake lever and guard from 51L parts. This is one of the early Y2s so it has a lever one one side, working the same shaft as the vacuum cylinder. The cylinder is the kit part and, because of the way I build the wagon floor is modelled very low, right at the end of its travel. If I were doing this again, I'd modify the floor.

The brake shoes, hangers, yokes and centre crank are from a Main Trains fret. I really wish that somebody would salvage the artwork for that one and put it back into production.

Currently, I'm stuck on livery. The van was built in 1890, and I'm assuming that it was repainted before the 25" GW initials came into use. Hence it would have the "GWR FRUIT VAN" branding it was built with. The first painting problem is whether should it be red or grey. I consider the red-grey transition to have happened in 1904, so the van may have been red when built (fruit vans were not considered NPCS in 1890). However, Atkins et al. explicitly say that they were grey (without citing a source). The second problem is finding suitable transfers. Nobody makes the 19th-century style.
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:12 pm

How easy is it to print artwork onto plain decal paper? I have sprayed decal up with base colour and then used for lining. I just wondered if it was possible to do something similar except laser print on to the paper? It would certainly make private owners lettering easier.
Tim Lee

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Will L
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Will L » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:59 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:How easy is it to print artwork onto plain decal paper? I have sprayed decal up with base colour and then used for lining. I just wondered if it was possible to do something similar except laser print on to the paper? It would certainly make private owners lettering easier.


No trouble at all, that is until you want white letters, Unfortunately printers that print white ink are very notable by their absence.

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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Le Corbusier » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:06 pm

Will L wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:How easy is it to print artwork onto plain decal paper? I have sprayed decal up with base colour and then used for lining. I just wondered if it was possible to do something similar except laser print on to the paper? It would certainly make private owners lettering easier.


No trouble at all, that is until you want white letters, Unfortunately printers that print white ink are very notable by their absence.

Perhaps a mixture of the two? .....Background colour - then print a fine outline - then brush in the lettering in white ? Thinking out loud so please forgive. Might allow a finer lettering than other home brewed options?

I have done similar when painting in presentation lettering onto drawings. .... draft the lettering large scale; reduce and print as an outline; block in with the paint brush.
Tim Lee

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:24 am

Four ways with custom transfers, then:

1. Tim's suggestion of a whole-size transfer with hand-tinted letters. Thanks for the idea.

2. A whole-side print on plain, white paper, rather than transfer paper.

3. Paint the side white and apply a whole-side transfer with transparent letters.

4. Paint white; apply letters in dry print; paint over body colour; remove transfers.

5. Apply individual letter in white over a grey/red body.

The first three look tricky on a van that has louvres all over; too much cutting and pocking into slots. Might be OK on a simpler wagon.

The last two depend on finding suitable alphabets. Number 4 requires me to win a fight with dry-print transfers with a KO; previously, I've only had dodgy points decisions. Also, I'm not finding many suitable transfer ranges these days.

I think one of the general alphabets in the Fox waterslide range would do. I reckon that correct layout and spacing will be more important than matching exactly the letter style. Also, one transfer sheet will do for several vans, and I have two Y2 and one Y1 to finish.

Now I just need to roll the dice and pick a body colour.

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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:13 am

Guy Rixon wrote:1. Tim's suggestion of a whole-size transfer with hand-tinted letters. Thanks for the idea.


I was more thinking that you could print the outline of the lettering onto the water slide. Then paint body colour to the outside and white within. Then cut around the letters/words like you might on boiler bands and apply using a decal fluid to get it to seat down. This means that you can concentrate on the lettering itself on a flat sheet of paper on a drawing board, and the actual application would be no different to any other decal.

All theory and maybe a non starter, but I intend to have a try with some PO wagons and see how I get on.
Tim Lee

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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:26 am

Hi Guy,

Option 6:

Another possibility would be to weather the vehicle, then gloss varnish the sides, then lettering, and finally matt varnish the sides. Apologies if that has already been suggested, but it does seem to be the simplest solution. Aside from the Midland, I wonder how many companies used the self-cleaning 'oxalic' paint for their lettering?

Re. transfers and pressing them into plank gaps, I always used a fine ball point pen with ink tube removed (or used an expended pen) for lettering P.O. wagons with dry print transfers.

All the best,

Colin

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Guy Rixon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:55 am

Tim: OK, I'm with you now. Yes, I might try that. I'd probably paint a white background first on the plank and see if it looked OK through a transparent transfer. I also have some opaque white ink that might do for filling in letters.

Colin: yes, pressing transfers into ordinary plank grooves (even over-scale ones) is good, but into louvres? I'm not sure if the technique would stretch to that.

I wonder if a single-plank transfer would show its thickness at the edges of the plank and within the plank where the louvre starts?

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Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby John Palmer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:17 pm

Rather than using a transfer, might a printable masking film be worth consideration? https://www.dorotape.co.uk/ may be worth a look for suitable masking film. Such a film seems likely to be preferable to dry print or a transfer, as it will be designed to act as a mask and thus be easier to remove once it has served its purpose. Another contributor just thinking aloud...

Colin Parks

Re: Assorted NPCS

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:55 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:Tim: OK, I'm with you now. Yes, I might try that. I'd probably paint a white background first on the plank and see if it looked OK through a transparent transfer. I also have some opaque white ink that might do for filling in letters.

Colin: yes, pressing transfers into ordinary plank grooves (even over-scale ones) is good, but into louvres? I'm not sure if the technique would stretch to that.

I wonder if a single-plank transfer would show its thickness at the edges of the plank and within the plank where the louvre starts?


Hi Guy,

Yes, louvres might be a step too far for the humble ball-point method. Decal softener seems the way to go. Now, I must apologise for confusing this thread and one on RMweb, where similar issues are being discussed, so ignore my comments on the MR's use of oxalic paint!

All the best,

Colin


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