16T Minerals

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Hardwicke
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16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:11 pm

I bought an Airfix 16T mineral wagon not so long ago as it had what are probably Protofour/Studiolith wheels and axle irons (w irons). I'm now updating the body.
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Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Noel
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Noel » Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:21 pm

It all made perfect sense to me, until the last photo. Nothing like the metal strips at the bottom of the body is visible here https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrwo1772.htm. It does look as though some builders put the floor between the sides and others put the sides on top of the floor https://twitter.com/SalopianLyne/status/1316135481445437446 [I don't know if that is real or just an illusion], but the floor plates were only ¼", and even then the floor does not seem the be present between the stanchions and the "T" section below. Perhaps 5 or 10 thou plastic sheet would be more appropriate?
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Noel

Highpeak
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Highpeak » Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:59 pm

I agree with Noel, from all the pictures I've seen where the floor is visible it is quite subtle. What I have done is attach a strip of 10 thou to the bottom of the side and then carefully sand/scrape it until it is barely there. It's one of those things that is more noticeable by its absence, it is barely visible otherwise (assuming of course that it's a wagon that had the sides on the floor rather than the floor within the sides).

I tried working with 5 thou sheet but it was easier to go with 10 and thin it down.

I've only worked with the Parkside kit since I bought a sizeable batch of just the side/end parts to go with either a scratchbuilt underframe or one of Justin's excellent kits. But I would think this mod would be the same on the Airfix kit, as would the corner reinforcements that Justin discusses on his workbench page.

Either way, unless you need massive quantities of the things there's a lot of fun and enjoyment to be had in lifting these kits to a higher level of detail.
Neville
If at first you don't succeed, try reading the instructions.

Martin Kelly
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Martin Kelly » Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:04 pm

Coincidentally, I'm working on a mineral wagon at the moment too. It's a 24.5-tonner using a Peco Parkside body but I am also attempting to represent the floor plate. Here's a work in progress shot:

Image

I used 10-thou styrene sheet for the job. You can read more details on my blog here:

https://everywagontellsastory.wordpress ... -the-body/

Perhaps that's some help?

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jjnewitt
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby jjnewitt » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:05 pm

I make my 16T mineral floors from 5 thou plasicard welded to the plastic body using Butanone. As Noel said the real thing was 1/4" plate so closer to 5 thou than 10 and there was no floor on the side stanchions. They came down below the floor level to sit directly on the brackets attached to the solebars. I add the 5 thou to the underside of the stanchions and then file it flush, so extending them. I tried etching the floors but it didn't really work for me. Much better I think to make them from plasticard and weld them in place. Makes for a stronger joint and the stanchions look better at the bottom.

Justin

16T Mineral Floor (1).jpg

16T Mineral Floor (2).jpg
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Martin Kelly
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Martin Kelly » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:26 pm

Yes, Justin, what you do looks like what I do except you've used 5-thou where I used 10-thou. I was a bit worried about ending up with a soggy mess if I used the thinner styrene but your butanol idea was a good solution ( bad pun intended).

Highpeak
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Highpeak » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:16 pm

I tried 5 thou but ended up with a bit of a mess, as Martin thought might happen, due to perhaps being too generous with the solvent. I switched to 10 thou and scraped most of it away till there was just enough left to suggest the floor. That needs a bit of care in knowing when to stop but the results were reasonably good.
Neville
If at first you don't succeed, try reading the instructions.

peterbkloss
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby peterbkloss » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:06 pm

What a great thread - I'd even thought to look for or noticed the floor - ignorance was bliss. I'm going to have a go and add floors to my minerals now ...

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jjnewitt
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby jjnewitt » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:51 pm

Martin Kelly wrote:Yes, Justin, what you do looks like what I do except you've used 5-thou where I used 10-thou. I was a bit worried about ending up with a soggy mess if I used the thinner styrene but your butanol idea was a good solution ( bad pun intended).


Highpeak wrote:I tried 5 thou but ended up with a bit of a mess, as Martin thought might happen, due to perhaps being too generous with the solvent.


Whenever I assemble anything in plastic I always use a little liquid cement (in my case a very old bottle of Revell) to lightly tack things in place. Once that has dried and I'm happy where everything is I then apply Butanone using a brush and leave it well alone until it's dried. Thin plasticard like 5 thou will go soft so it's important not to touch it and tacking it in place first helps enormously. It's also useful when assembling bodies and getting everything square. You can undo and then redo a joint that's tacked together using liquid cement but once it's been welded together with something like Butanone that's pretty much it.

Justin

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:12 pm

With hindsight I agree plastikard is a better solution, but I didn't have access to my 5 thou or 10 thou for that matter and I missed Slater's closing time last week by an hour. The brass hasn't bonded very well and the solvent seems to have a nasty brown residue coming out of the brush.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:12 pm

I've since found out Slater's no longer sell 5 thou sheets
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Noel
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Noel » Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:35 pm

One possibility https://www.hattons.co.uk/47615/evergreen_plastics_eg9009_12_x_6_sheets_005_thickness_3_per_pack/stockdetail. I expect there are others. Evergreen have a wide range of sheet and sections.
Regards
Noel

Alan Turner
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:38 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I've since found out Slater's no longer sell 5 thou sheets


Correct but Evergreen do.

regards

Alan

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:18 pm

Alan Turner wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:I've since found out Slater's no longer sell 5 thou sheets


Correct but Evergreen do.

regards

Alan

I thought so but my local model shop is now 20 miles away at least. Possibly more.
I forgot Sherwood Models
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:31 pm

Found my 5 thou plastikard, removed the brass and the floor/body sides now have the correct "lip.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:33 pm

I must buy some clean mekpak
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:21 pm

I bought the correct axles irons at Wells. Should the axle irons have one or two holes in them? A quick check on Paul Bartlett's site shows predominantly one.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

Tony Wilkins
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Tony Wilkins » Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:36 pm

Hi Micheal.
Yes generally one hole in the W irons, to the outside of the axle boxes, but not always.
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Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 20, 2023 5:18 am

I've noticed in my stack of spare P4 wheels that there is a real inconsistency in axle length.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:53 am

Hardwicke wrote:I've noticed in my stack of spare P4 wheels that there is a real inconsistency in axle length.

I knew the problem had been mentioned...
Tim V wrote:I don't "recommend" these dimensions, they are the dimensions that items should accord with. Unfortunately, I have checked the S4 Digest (and the EMGS manual!) but these fundamental dimensions are not specified. No wonder more than one manufacturer got it wrong.

Of interest, the 2mm Scale Association actually do set out the specifications (attached). It occurs to me that this kind of information is sorely lacking in 4mm, perhaps someone needs to sit down and draw it out.
2mm standards.jpg
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:58 am

It was under "Another newcomer's question re wagon suspension" however the problem there was under size axle length.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:01 am

quote="Daddyman"]Thanks for the replies.

Tim V wrote:Where to start?

What length are the axles? A lot of axles are under the recommended 26mm. Most I measured were 25.8mm. This can lead to slop.

What is the width between the faces of the W irons? It should be 24mm, but a lot are not - some can be considerably more.


Axles are 25.9, W-iron b-to-bs are 23.8 - so it must all be in the bearings. Could the 0.2mm you quote really create the amount of slop I'm getting - or indeed any slop (as opposed to operational tolerance)?

Le Corbusier wrote:.


I'll admit the bearings used were old ones from various second hand models.
The axle irons splay out alarmingly. I'll check the measurements.
Last edited by Hardwicke on Sun Aug 20, 2023 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Will L
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Will L » Sun Aug 20, 2023 9:50 am

Hardwicke wrote:It was under "Another newcomer's question re wagon suspension" however the problem there was under size axle length.

We have been round this before, but it isn't just variation in axle length. The depth of the bearing V, the depth of the flange round the edge and not to mention the accuracy (or otherwise) with which the W irons are set apart all come in to play. If you haven't seen it before the Russ Elliot write up on this (here) is worth a read, but the lesson is that by the time you add together all the possible sources of error you end up having to match axle and bearings to the gap between the W Irons.

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Hardwicke
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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:01 pm

Will L wrote:The depth of the bearing V, the depth of the flange round the edge and not to mention the accuracy (or otherwise) with which the W irons are set apart all come in to play. If you haven't seen it before the Russ Elliot write up on this (here) is worth a read, but the lesson is that by the time you add together all the possible sources of error you end up having to match axle and bearings to the gap between the W Irons.

Thanks Will.
I'll check the bearings, but I did see the axles varied by at least 1mm. I've no idea which make, though I can usually identify PC, Studiolith, Maygib and Exactoscale.
Perhaps some lathe work...
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: 16T Minerals

Postby zebedeesknees » Mon Aug 21, 2023 10:15 am

Hardwicke wrote:I'll check the bearings, but I did see the axles varied by at least 1mm. I've no idea which make, though I can usually identify PC, Studiolith, Maygib and Exactoscale.
Perhaps some lathe work...

The thought just occurred - rather than trying to replicate the coning on the ends of 2mm rod, since the manufacturers appear to be having so much difficulty with accuracy, would it be easier to cut the axles and sleeve them to fit?

Ted.
(A purists' purist)


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