14XX

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Hardwicke
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14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Mon May 21, 2018 8:46 pm

I bought a 14XX years ago with a brass chassis, possibly a Perseverance one, but with no compensating beams. I've fixed the pick ups, but found it binds. The rods match one another and the driven wheel runs when uncoupled. I've checked the clearances on the bearings. all ok. The non powered driving axle does not like running even with no power and uncoupled. Should I rebuild with compensating beams or go for CSB?
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Will L
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Re: 14XX

Postby Will L » Mon May 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I bought a 14XX years ago with a brass chassis, possibly a Perseverance one, but with no compensating beams. I've fixed the pick ups, but found it binds. The rods match one another and the driven wheel runs when uncoupled. I've checked the clearances on the bearings. all ok. The non powered driving axle does not like running even with no power and uncoupled. Should I rebuild with compensating beams or go for CSB?


Much as I might be in favour of CSB in principle, retro fitting them to an existing chassis is a job even I would not readily contemplate. Fitting compensation should prove a lot simpler.

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Mon May 21, 2018 10:03 pm

All it has in essence are the floating axle-boxes on the second driver and trailing axle.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Mon May 21, 2018 10:04 pm

I'm still not sure why it binds though. Sharman wheels.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

billbedford
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Re: 14XX

Postby billbedford » Tue May 22, 2018 8:45 am

Check that bearings on the non-driven axle are aligned properly. Otherwise something is fouling that axle and/or the wheels.
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Philip Hall
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Re: 14XX

Postby Philip Hall » Tue May 22, 2018 11:11 am

Might also be an idea to check that the rods actually match the chassis. Also that the crankpins are vertical in the wheels. Sometimes the Sharman crankpin bushes are a sloppy fit on the crankpins, so they can be tightened up askew, a solution there would be new bushes. Finally, very occasionally Sharman wheels, after Steve Hodgson’s time, had variations in crank throw!

Philip

martin goodall
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Re: 14XX

Postby martin goodall » Tue May 22, 2018 2:47 pm

Hardwicke wrote:I'm still not sure why it binds though. Sharman wheels.


Check the crank throw on EACH wheel.

I once had a problem of binding with a Metro Tank that I had fitted with Sharman wheels. After a lot of faffing about, I eventually established that one wheel had a different crank throw compared with the others (!) (So this was a simple packing problem.) The answer was to substitute a wheel that had the correct crank throw.

This might not be the problem here, but worth a check. Otherwise it may be any one of the other 93 common causes. Working through all of them shouldn't take you more than a couple of years.

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Will L
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Re: 14XX

Postby Will L » Tue May 22, 2018 8:14 pm

billbedford wrote:Check that bearings on the non-driven axle are aligned properly. Otherwise something is fouling that axle and/or the wheels.

I'm with Bill, if an axle doesn't turn freely when the coupling rods are off then you probably have a problem with a bearing being out of alignment (or just possibly the wheels are catching on something but that ought to be obvious). Running a 1/8 parallel reamer (if you have such a thing, I still have one from my days of trying to build rigid chassis) through both the bearing and spinning the chassis on it should free up the axle. Failing that trying a 1/8 drill it might help, of even a round needle file, but don't over do it.

Once you can get the axle to turn freely, then is the time to check that the rods match the chassis. Axles with turned pointed ends is the easy way to check this (I presume you can still get these, I've had mine a long-time). If not look no further.
Failing that you can try using a Vernier Caliper (digital ones available at silly prices on ebay) to measure things. First measurement across the outside of the axles to prove its the same on both sides of the chassis. If not look no further.
Then measure the distance inside the axles and take the average of the inside and outside measurement to work out what the axle centres are. Then do the same trick with the connecting rods on the crankpins to prove they are the same. If not look no further.
Making these measurements accurately enough to make this work isn't that easy to do but it can be done with care. Repeat the measurements until you get consistent results

Only when you know the rods fit the chassis do you need to worry about crankpin faults.

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Thu May 24, 2018 5:46 pm

One crank-pin is different !
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Thu May 24, 2018 6:14 pm

Looks like one is a 24 inch crank throw, one is 26 inch. (4mm between wheel centre and crank centre compared to 4.08mm). Enough to cause the problem. Anyone have a 5'2" diameter 24 inch crank throw Sharman wheel spare?
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

martin goodall
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Re: 14XX

Postby martin goodall » Fri May 25, 2018 6:35 pm

Hardwicke wrote:One crank-pin is different !


Bingo!

I didn't seriously think this would prove to be the answer, but it turns out I was not the only customer to encounter this problem.

Philip Hall
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Re: 14XX

Postby Philip Hall » Sat May 26, 2018 12:00 am

The crank problem came up one day when I was in conversation with the late Ivan Smith. He had some Sharman drivers, in a set, where the throws differed and he enquired of the supplier at the time (not Mike or Steve, I should say, this was quite late on before they disappeared) about the problem. “Does it matter?” was the response!

Philip

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Tue May 29, 2018 8:27 pm

I've forgotten which black hole Sharman Wheels fell into.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: 14XX

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed May 30, 2018 6:31 am

Hardwicke wrote:I've forgotten which black hole Sharman Wheels fell into.


The Stapletons of Essex, who are better known for Phoenix Precsion Paints. It is still possible to obtain a batch of wheels if your are willing to commit to sufficient quantity.

One reason given for the effective cessation of supply is the wear and tear on the tooling and the protracted production time, using Mike Sharman's original design. The expansion of the PPP "empire" to include a number of other production ranges probably hasn't helped either.

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Horsetan
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Re: 14XX

Postby Horsetan » Wed May 30, 2018 9:56 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:I've forgotten which black hole Sharman Wheels fell into.


The Stapletons of Essex, who are better known for Phoenix Precsion Paints. It is still possible to obtain a batch of wheels if your are willing to commit to sufficient quantity....


Hundreds of wheels, I take that to mean.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

nigelcliffe
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Re: 14XX

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed May 30, 2018 10:11 am

Hardwicke wrote:Looks like one is a 24 inch crank throw, one is 26 inch. (4mm between wheel centre and crank centre compared to 4.08mm). Enough to cause the problem. Anyone have a 5'2" diameter 24 inch crank throw Sharman wheel spare?


Or, drill the crankpin hole bigger, plug the hole, and re-drill in the right place ?
Probably not that hard for someone with a coordinate drilling table - only need one axis for that to work.
And its not that hard to DIY a single axis slide table for such a job from a digital slide gauge (aka digital vernier gauge) and a few bits of decent plywood: there's an article in the current 2mm Scale Association Magazine on how to make one.

If wanting to do this, ask me and I'll send details of the DIY slide.

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Will L
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Re: 14XX

Postby Will L » Wed May 30, 2018 1:39 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:Or, drill the crankpin hole bigger, plug the hole, and re-drill in the right place ?

'Fraid not Sharman wheels come with a 14ba bolt moulded in as a crankpin.

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Wed May 30, 2018 2:49 pm

Can't it be drilled out from the back and then using one of the other wheels as a guide for a new hole, glued back in? We are talking very small amounts
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Wed May 30, 2018 2:50 pm

PM me.
Thanks

nigelcliffe wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:Looks like one is a 24 inch crank throw, one is 26 inch. (4mm between wheel centre and crank centre compared to 4.08mm). Enough to cause the problem. Anyone have a 5'2" diameter 24 inch crank throw Sharman wheel spare?


Or, drill the crankpin hole bigger, plug the hole, and re-drill in the right place ?
Probably not that hard for someone with a coordinate drilling table - only need one axis for that to work.
And its not that hard to DIY a single axis slide table for such a job from a digital slide gauge (aka digital vernier gauge) and a few bits of decent plywood: there's an article in the current 2mm Scale Association Magazine on how to make one.

If wanting to do this, ask me and I'll send details of the DIY slide.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

Philip Hall
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Re: 14XX

Postby Philip Hall » Wed May 30, 2018 6:18 pm

Can't it be drilled out from the back and then using one of the other wheels as a guide for a new hole, glued back in? We are talking very small amounts


The short answer is no. Sharman wheels are moulded of a flexible kind of plastic, a bit like Alan Gibson for example, and even if you could get the crankpin out or drill through from the back (most likely this would wreck the wheel) it would be quite a job to find an adhesive or filler than will adhere sufficiently to the plastic to make a robust job. Old fashioned full strength Araldite might work, but even my favourite Plastic Padding Super Steel doesn’t like most kind of plastic where a lot of movement is involved.

As it is admittedly a small amount a possible bodge (and my choice) would be simply to bend the crankpin in or out as required (straightening the end where the nut fits) so that it matches the others. Some Sharman crankpin bushes can be a little sloppy on the screw, so could be waggled around so that when tightened up the throws are the same.

Philip

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grovenor-2685
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Re: 14XX

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:12 pm

Or just get a set of AG wheels?
Regards

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Thu May 31, 2018 9:34 pm

The frames are not Perseverance. Home made or Gibson.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Thu May 31, 2018 9:35 pm

Thanks for the advice though. All welcome.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: 14XX

Postby Hardwicke » Thu May 31, 2018 9:44 pm

20180531_223656.jpg
The 14xx chassis


20180531_223710.jpg


20180531_223735.jpg
Underside. Beam not fitted yet.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".


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