GWR query

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Andy W
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GWR query

Postby Andy W » Mon May 18, 2020 5:38 pm

A couple of long term residents of my Shelf of Shame are two GWR vehicles, a W1 parcels van kit bash and a Picnic saloon from Shirescenes. Being a Midland modeller this is unfamiliar territory for me. I've tried to research where and which crests would be correct. I've Photoshopped the following onto coaches which have unfinished lining and paintwork. I model circa 1906 so am looking for the earlier GWR style. For the W1 would it have had one scrolled logo?
Parcels W1 1 scroll.jpg

Or two?
Parcels W1 2 scrolls.jpg

Would this be right for the saloon?
Picnic Saloon crests.jpg

Finally, if I left the inner lining off the cream panels would I be sent to the GWR naughty step?
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

Phil O
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Re: GWR query

Postby Phil O » Mon May 18, 2020 9:48 pm

Hi Andy

This may be of some help.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1880.html

Cheers

Phil

martin goodall
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Re: GWR query

Postby martin goodall » Tue May 19, 2020 1:54 pm

Andy should theoretically add a very thin brown line around the insides of the cream panels in this period, but it would be so thin in 4mm scale that it would be extremely tricky to do (unless it is overscale, in which case it might be better omitted). It is the sort of detail whose absence, if it were to be omitted, would probably not be noticed.

In 7mm scale, however, it may perhaps be worth adding the inner brown line. (See the coaching stock on Sherton Abbas in MRJ 278. However, it is really only visible on the front cover in the panels of the coach nearest the camera. The effect is very subtle.)

Ultimately, this is a matter of personal choice and, even as a dedicated adherent of God's Wonderful Railway, I would never criticise anyone for leaving out this barely visible coach livery detail.

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Andy W
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Re: GWR query

Postby Andy W » Tue May 19, 2020 5:07 pm

Thanks chaps. I probably will leave the inner line out - but the guilt is already with me......
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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jon price
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Re: GWR query

Postby jon price » Tue May 19, 2020 8:03 pm

The GWR link given above shows the brown line being 1/8" wide, and separated from the black panel moulding by 1/8". I can't see that being visible at normal viewing conditions in anything smaller than the engineering scales. If there was a bigger cream gap then you might have to start thinking about how to do it.

I am currently looking at a similar lining problem. It is on a US model in HO so it is my own fault. The lines are 1/4" gold, which scales at .07 of a millimeter, so much too thin for transfers or lining pen, but because they are gold on dark red, and spaced 7" apart they can look quite prominent in some direct light, but invisible in other situations. The problem is that because you know there should be lines you expect to see them, but if you did see them they would be far too thick. All the model manufacturers that have tried this have gone with a massively overscale line, rather than missing them off, probably for this reason, but the resulting appearance is completely wrong for most lighting conditions. I will almost certainely miss them off, but anyone who has seen a famous photograph will think I havn't finished them off properly
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

martin goodall
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Re: GWR query

Postby martin goodall » Tue May 19, 2020 8:14 pm

My own choice in both these cases would be to leave out these very thin lines.

[But I am notoriously cavalier in my attitude towards scale accuracy and very fine detail. My excuse is that my models are "only an artist's impression".]

Incidentally, the problem of the thin brown line on GWR coaches doesn't arise in the case of the brown and cream coach livery reintroduced in 1922, as the brown line was then omitted. So Mr Collett (or his C&W Works Manager) had presumably decided that even in 12-inch to the foot scale, it wasn't sufficiently visible to justify the effort of putting it in.

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Andy W
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Re: GWR query

Postby Andy W » Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 am

If it’s good enough for you Martin, it’s certainly good enough for me.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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jim s-w
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Re: GWR query

Postby jim s-w » Wed May 20, 2020 11:42 am

As the lines are inside a panel can’t you use a wash and the capillary effect to get the result you want easily?

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Guy Rixon
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Re: GWR query

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed May 20, 2020 1:19 pm

jim s-w wrote:As the lines are inside a panel can’t you use a wash and the capillary effect to get the result you want easily?

I understand the use of a wash to fill the panel (I've seen the YouTube video), but how does that help with the line inside the panel?

Enigma
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Re: GWR query

Postby Enigma » Wed May 20, 2020 4:45 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:
jim s-w wrote:As the lines are inside a panel can’t you use a wash and the capillary effect to get the result you want easily?

I understand the use of a wash to fill the panel (I've seen the YouTube video), but how does that help with the line inside the panel?

Didn't Jim Whittaker use lots of very thin coats of cream to fill panels between beadings?

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Guy Rixon
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Re: GWR query

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu May 21, 2020 3:25 pm

Enigma wrote:
Guy Rixon wrote:
jim s-w wrote:As the lines are inside a panel can’t you use a wash and the capillary effect to get the result you want easily?

I understand the use of a wash to fill the panel (I've seen the YouTube video), but how does that help with the line inside the panel?

Didn't Jim Whittaker use lots of very thin coats of cream to fill panels between beadings?

Yes, that's the technique. It gets an even finish on the panels without spraying and a sharp line between panels and mouldings without masking or elite brushmanship. It can, in principle, be used to neaten up gold(ish) lining on the mouldings if the washes can be made to cover over splashes of gold on the panels. But how does it help with a line to be drawn inside the panel?

Jeremy Suter
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Re: GWR query

Postby Jeremy Suter » Thu May 21, 2020 3:57 pm

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Re: GWR query
Quote Guy Rixon
Post by Guy Rixon » Thu May 21, 2020 4:25 pm
Enigma wrote:
Guy Rixon wrote:
jim s-w wrote:
As the lines are inside a panel can’t you use a wash and the capillary effect to get the result you want easily?

I understand the use of a wash to fill the panel (I've seen the YouTube video), but how does that help with the line inside the panel?

Didn't Jim Whittaker use lots of very thin coats of cream to fill panels between beadings?

Yes, that's the technique. It gets an even finish on the panels without spraying and a sharp line between panels and mouldings without masking or elite brushmanship. It can, in principle, be used to neaten up gold(ish) lining on the mouldings if the washes can be made to cover over splashes of gold on the panels. But how does it help with a line to be drawn inside the panel?

I can Remember Jim Whittaker and have seen some of his coaches beautifly made and painted. He didn't put the inner line on them he also painted the beading brown not black. as other people have said its too fine to do in 4mm scale.

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Penrhos1920
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Re: GWR query

Postby Penrhos1920 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:09 pm

Try here for illustrated examples:

http://penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml

Best viewed on a UHD monitor, but an iPad will do!

Phil O
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Re: GWR query

Postby Phil O » Sat May 23, 2020 6:54 am

When I do the black beading I use a laundry marker, I took some photos, but that was a long time ago and are probably on an old computer somewhere. My stock is all packed away, so I am unable to take another photo at this time.

ACJ
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Re: GWR query

Postby ACJ » Sat May 23, 2020 9:11 am

I did not attempt the inner lining on the cream panels, relying on some subtle weathering to create an impression instead. The livery is pre 1st World War.
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Andy

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Andy W
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Re: GWR query

Postby Andy W » Sat May 23, 2020 8:31 pm

That’s terrific Andy. One central entwined logo looks the way to go.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

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steve howe
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Re: GWR query

Postby steve howe » Sun May 24, 2020 2:23 pm

This might be useful:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/8235-painting-coach-panels/

The saga on the Farthing layouts is worth a look (for GWR buffs :thumb )

Steve

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Flymo748
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Re: GWR query

Postby Flymo748 » Mon May 25, 2020 6:23 am

steve howe wrote:This might be useful:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/8235-painting-coach-panels/

The saga on the Farthing layouts is worth a look (for GWR buffs :thumb )

Steve


I'm an enormous fan of the Farthing layouts, and Mikkel's work in general. He really is a superb modeller, and has really inventive ideas.

Heartily recommended for a relaxing rad, and you might learn something about red GWR wagons as well...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

martin goodall
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Re: GWR query

Postby martin goodall » Tue May 26, 2020 4:57 pm

On the subject of the black lining on the beading, I applied this with a Rotring pen, using Rotring black ink.

IMG_6223 (4w B3rd).JPG

This is the early 1920s livery, so no brown line (and hence slightly off-thread).

Incidentally, I would enthusiastically add my endorsement of Mikkel Klartjens' 'Farthing Layouts' blog. Interesting and inspiring model-making.


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