LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:21 pm

Hi All,

I'm planning signalling of my layout and seeking some advice.

I am modelling LMS (ex-LNWR), late 1930s, loosely located in North Lancs/Cumbria on the West Coast Main Line. I have completed scratch build of a 2-doll ex-LNWR wooden post junction signal (lower quadrant) protecting a junction and have questions about how the associated distant should operate. The secondary route will accept passenger traffic and the junction can be taken at moderate speed (I suspect that the answer may depend on speed of the secondary).

Should I have a splitting distant and, if so, should the secondary route distant arm be fixed at caution?
If I have a single distant arm and the secondary route home is clear, should the distant be at caution or clear?

Would really appreciate advice/guidance.

Thanks in advance, James.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:16 pm

Must be a mighty big layout if you have room for the distants. :)
I would think it likely that it would have worked splitting distants, suggest looking up a few WCML signal boxes on the SRS or Signalbox.org sites to confirm, they must have some.
I don't know if the LNW went in for fixed distants at junctions but if there was only one arm then it would be cleared only for the main route. Pulling it off for a lower speed branch route would be giving the driver entirely the wrong message and creating a dangerous situation.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:59 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Must be a mighty big layout if you have room for the distants. :)
I would think it likely that it would have worked splitting distants, suggest looking up a few WCML signal boxes on the SRS or Signalbox.org sites to confirm, they must have some.
I don't know if the LNW went in for fixed distants at junctions but if there was only one arm then it would be cleared only for the main route. Pulling it off for a lower speed branch route would be giving the driver entirely the wrong message and creating a dangerous situation.


Thanks Keith,
This helps.
I don’t have a large enough layout but I’m prepared to compromise!
I already asked John Hinson what relevant track plans he has.
I’ve read that splitting distant were being phased out early 20th century, hence question.

James

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:45 am

Like most phasing out, a very long process, changes would only be made if the location concerned had significant work underway. On main lines such as the WCML the LMS had a policy for upgrades and renewals to the block system that involved installation of colour light distants so as that took effect then the splitting distants would go.
Info on the block system policy here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/signalli-LMS.htm
I don'y have anything definitive on the colour light distants except a small article in the Model Railway Constructor but they do show up on many of the signalling plans, finding the date of installation is not so easy however.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:03 am

James,

you could email the LNWR Society for help. Richard Foster is a member and wrote the book on LNWR Signalling. He is also a member of the LNWRS Forum but I don't think that non-members can post on it. However, there is a LNWRS Facebook which is open to the public so you could try that.

Jol

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:20 am

Thanks for the pointers.

To my knowledge colour lights were only in use at major stations (eg Crewe) in the 1930s. If they existed in Cumbria in 1937, I'd actually like to install one!

I have trawled through junction track plans in signalbox.org. Unfortunately, there are not many 1930s examples but those I found had a single distant. I did find a splitting distant in a 19th century track plan. I'd actually like to install a splitting distant, but I'm not sure it would be prototypical on the WCML by 1937.

You mentioned SRS. I am not familiar with that?

Thanks again, James.

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:21 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:James,

you could email the LNWR Society for help. Richard Foster is a member and wrote the book on LNWR Signalling. He is also a member of the LNWRS Forum but I don't think that non-members can post on it. However, there is a LNWRS Facebook which is open to the public so you could try that.

Jol


Thanks Jol. I'll try this.

Mark Tatlow
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Mark Tatlow » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:01 am

James,

Pop a note to the LMS Society (they have a contact page on their website).

Graham Warbarton (the author of the LMS signals series in the LMS Journal) is a member of the society and is going to be a pretty good bet to know the answer.



Mark
Mark Tatlow

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:15 am

Thanks for all the tips.

I found Signal Records Society. I have been there before! Loads of plans but not many are dated :(

I have signed up for the LNWR society forum as a guest.

I'll check out the LMS society.

Thanks all.

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:24 am

This is an interesting article published in the 1937 LMS magazine! Comments on new innovation of mechanical colour light signals (in 1936)!

http://www.lmssociety.org.uk/topics/distantSignals.php

Now time to get on with the decking!!!!

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:05 am

That article at least gives the date when installation of colour light distants started so you can forget about them if you are in the 30s. Note that the use of 'mechanically operated' is a bit of a misnomer, the signals themselves are normal colour lights (searchlights were also tried). I think the mechanical bit refers to the use of the levers in the frame to operate them via a circuit controller.
I have now dug out Graham Warburton's article from Model Railway Constructor October 1972 which gives the date for first installation of colourlight distants using Searchlight signals as 1932 at Weedon. The article includes photos of the first two types with searchlight signals and the 3 lamp head at Boxmoor as in the article, and drawings of the two signals shown in that linked article, ie tall three lamp head with striped post and the dwarf signal to go in the 6ft.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 1113
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:28 pm

jamesicunningham wrote:Thanks for all the tips.

I found Signal Records Society. I have been there before! Loads of plans but not many are dated :(

I have signed up for the LNWR society forum as a guest.

I'll check out the LMS society.

Thanks all.


The LNWRS and SRS share the same facilities in Kenilworth (the photo on the SRS site would appear to be of an LNWRS open day, judging by the people I recognise). All you need under one roof it were practical/possible to visit.

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:05 am

Hi James

Have you tried the Cumbrian Railways Association? They have a number of signalling experts.

I am a member of their email chatroom (as well as a member of the CRA as I model pre-war Furness Railway) - I can post a question on there if you would like?

All the best

Neil

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:00 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Hi James

Have you tried the Cumbrian Railways Association? They have a number of signalling experts.

I am a member of their email chatroom (as well as a member of the CRA as I model pre-war Furness Railway) - I can post a question on there if you would like?

All the best

Neil


Hi Neil, that would be very welcome.

Since posting, I have learned more with the help of Keith and researching the LMS Society and S-R-S. Pending guest membership of LNWR forum. I have also become rather interested in the "mechanical" colour light distant signals through Keith's suggestions and reading the LMS magazine article posted earlier. There is also the question of search lights which would be earlier! I have concluded that the LMS would have put a lot of emphasis on distant signals to ensure the express passenger trains ran to timetable in their competition with the LNER! I'd love to add a colour light signal to my layout if it can be justified! I'll then go on a tangent to work out how to model it!!!

I have been working through the S-R-S track plans looking for a junction similar to my fictional location. It needs to be West Coast Mainline in Cumbria in the correct period. Unfortunately most S-R-S plans are undated. I have found a few of interest but am most interested in the "Low Gill" junction to the Ingleton Branch. It has the features I am looking for in the correct location and in the impressive Lune Gorge! I am actually familiar with the location, having visited it a couple of years ago and passing it while travelling by train to Scotland. You can actually see the disused Low Gill Viaduct from the West Coast Main Line. I have also found a couple of plans with split distant but I don't think that the WCML would have had split distant by 1937. Why 1937? I want to run my Coronation Scot train which I spent many hours researching and modelling using Comet coach etches. So, 1939 would also be OK. My current theory is that the LMS replaced LNWR split distant with single distant upper quadrants (or colour light) on the WCML as a priority but this is purely a hunch and happy to be shot down by those with more wisdom. The LMS Society are kindly gathering responses for me!

Here is a link to the S-R-S plan of Low Gill:
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M758.gif

I would like to know if colour light distant signals were in use in Cumbria by 1939.
I would also like to know if signals would be upper or lower quadrant. My current hunch is that the distant semaphore on UP Main is an LMS steel tube upper quadrant (replacing an LNWR split lower) and the junction signal is ex-LNWR lower quadrant wooden post.
On the Down Main, there are colour light signals. Would these be in place by 1939?
I am also interested in the Down Main starters which I don't understand.

Really appreciate any help you can offer.

Thanks, James.
ps The irony of all this is that my mum (born 1930) worked at the Grove (LMS signal HQ)!

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:42 pm

OK am on it...! Well let you know what comes up....

My gut feeling is upper quadrants, after all the LMS resignalled the Lake Side branch with UQs in the 30s, which would have been a significantly lower priority than the WCML I would have thought...

All the best

Neil

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Noel » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:06 pm

jamesicunningham wrote:I am also interested in the Down Main starters which I don't understand.


2 is either the home [presumably 440 yards short of the junction] or the outer home, and 3 is the inner home or starter, so I assume that this is a reference to the two colour lights beyond 4, which is the starter or advanced starter. Judging by the track circuits [I can't read all the text on the diagram], these are the distant and home for an Intermediate Block Section [IBS] worked from Low Gill.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:23 pm

That link does not work for me and I've not managed to find the diagram on the SRS site but colour light IB signals were introduced very soon after the colour light distants so that would be reasonable, there were plenty of IBs installed in that part of the WCML.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:51 pm

Hi James

One bit of info I can supply now - which actually just shows the picture was mixed.

There are two photos of Hincaster Junction (south of Oxenholme, where the Furness Railway line to Arnside left the WCML) in the great new book from the CRA about this branch (Kendal Tommy, by Dave Richardson).

In c 1935 (a photo from the CRA's Pattinson Collection) all the visible signals of the junction (the up main starter, down home and branch home) are LNWR wooden posts and LQ arms.

Even as late as September 1954 (a photo from the CRA Pearsall Collection) the up main starter and down home are STILL LNWR LQs, but perhaps almost perversely the branch home is now LMS pattern post and UQ arm. I think the reason for this change was that the junction was changed from having a lead from both the up and down lines onto the branch, and this was later changed to a single connection onto the down, with a crossover to allow up trains to access the branch.

So - this disproves any theory that there was wholesale clearance of LNWR signals, before WW2.

I will do some more searching...!

All the best

Neil

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:58 pm

Neil Smith wrote:Hi James

One bit of info I can supply now - which actually just shows the picture was mixed.

There are two photos of Hincaster Junction (south of Oxenholme, where the Furness Railway line to Arnside left the WCML) in the great new book from the CRA about this branch (Kendal Tommy, by Dave Richardson).

In c 1935 (a photo from the CRA's Pattinson Collection) all the visible signals of the junction (the up main starter, down home and branch home) are LNWR wooden posts and LQ arms.

Even as late as September 1954 (a photo from the CRA Pearsall Collection) the up main starter and down home are STILL LNWR LQs, but perhaps almost perversely the branch home is now LMS pattern post and UQ arm. I think the reason for this change was that the junction was changed from having a lead from both the up and down lines onto the branch, and this was later changed to a single connection onto the down, with a crossover to allow up trains to access the branch.

So - this disproves any theory that there was wholesale clearance of LNWR signals, before WW2.

I will do some more searching...!

All the best

Neil


This supports the feedback I received from John Hinson.

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:59 pm

Feedback from Reg Instone, LMS Society.....

As I am sure you are aware, the WCML was the property of the LNWR until 1922. The subject of "LNWR Signalling" is covered in detail in a book written in 1972 by Richard D Foster and published by OPC. Second hand copies do appear occasionally.

Junction signalling is an interesting subject. In the period from the 1880s until the 1910s it was customary to provide full signalling for each possible route, including splitting distants. The LNWR was no exception to this. Around 1905/10 there was some discussion about the sense of clearing a distant signal for a diverging junction at which speed needed to be reduced significantly. Most companies decided this was not sensible, and so the majority of splitting distants were removed, leaving only those where the divergence could be taken at (say) 40mph or more. The GWR and LNWR began removing theirs in 1905 [LNWR Signalling p66], while the GNR, for example, removed a huge number of theirs in one go in 1912. There were a number of accidents around this time which influenced this decision.

After this date, the majority of boxes controlling diverging junctions had just a single distant arm. It would be cleared for the main (high speed) route, but the interlocking would not allow it to be cleared for the divergence and such trains would pass it at danger.

I think the first tubular steel posts and upper quadrant arms were introduced by the LMS in the late 1920s, but each signal was so treated only when it came up for renewal (the life of a signal is generally about 30-40 years or even more). Consequently there were still a substantial number of wooden post lower quadrant arms in use in the 1960s (they are shown in photos and on contemporary Signal Sighting Forms).

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:02 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:That link does not work for me and I've not managed to find the diagram on the SRS site but colour light IB signals were introduced very soon after the colour light distants so that would be reasonable, there were plenty of IBs installed in that part of the WCML.


Low Gill.pdf
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:27 pm

Hmm tried to post this earlier - and it seems to have disappeared. Apologies if you now get this post twice..

I have had the reply below from Mike Norris on the CRA chatline. I had set out a series of questions summarising your queries, and here are his answers:


OK I will try to answer some of your questions, Please see text below:
Just a quick note, there are only a hand full of junctions on the WCML were splitting distant might be used by the late 1930's, my information tends to be a bit later, so I would need to dig further. Photographs are the best indicator for locations and features you are trying to capture, it might then be possible to pin more details on to the story.

1. When were splitting distants phased out on the WCML in what is now Cumbria?

Not sure about this I haven't come across any (that I remember in my research!) looking through my diagrams most are a bit later but where a junction has a splitting route signalled the branch route is usually fixed, only the main line would clear, no high speed junctions! But many were provided with outer distants so speed could be maintained.


2. Is there any way of getting dated signal diagrams? (Which might help answer question 1 for any junctions where the LNWR would have used splitting distants historically?!)

Dated diagrams don't appear that often certainly not for this period, much more common for BR period, you are going to struggle a bit with that and even when you do find one, it has inevitably been updated at some time.

3. If a LNWR splitting distant was replaced with a single distant, would that be LQ or UQ? (Almost definitely this depends on when the change happened.. If it was before 1923, or whenever the LMS stopped just putting up more of the posts of its constituents and started on the UQs, then it could be LQ I guess.)

Many distant signals were colour lights from quite an early date, the sectional appendix will list them, probably approach lit and with an AUXilary aspect for lamp failure.

4. What was the timeframe for the replacement of LQ signals with UQ along the WCML in Cumbria? When were the first UQs to arrive, when were the last LQs on the mainline to go?

The last to go were on the re-signalling and hand over to Carlisle PSB, so they stayed until the end - photographs are the best for what you need, bearing mind it was more or less random if a post and signal remained in good condition it wouldn't be changed. Post war things just stayed and by the mid 60's and early 70's the WCML was very much make do and mend.

5. There is also the limited use pre-WW2 of colour light distants on the LMS. Were there any of these in Cumbria in that era?

Yes, there were many in use, you mentioned Low Gill Jn, in 1933 Dillicar box was closed and IB signals provided which were colour lights, usually approach lit and quite possible with an AUXilary lamp, in case of lamp failure. The LMS had a policy as part of the speeding up of services to add IB signals to remove break section cabins and to split long sections. (other examples include Eamont Jn 1938, Wreay 1935, Bessie Gill c.1939).



I hope this is helpful.

In addition a Google search for images of Low Gill station found one in early BR days with all the visible signals (the down main and down branch homes, and beyond the junction the up homes on a bracket) were all LNWR wooden posts, but with LMS UQ arms.

So it would seem that for your location you could very reasonably have LNWR LQ signals, LNWR posts with UQ arms, or LMS UQ signals, and a combo of part or all of the above!

All the best

Neil

jamesicunningham
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby jamesicunningham » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:02 pm

Neil,

You are a superstar. You confirmed everything I suspected but did not know for sure.....

"Yes, there were many (colour light) in use, you mentioned Low Gill Jn, in 1933 Dillicar box was closed and IB signals provided which were colour lights, usually approach lit and quite possible with an AUXilary lamp, in case of lamp failure. The LMS had a policy as part of the speeding up of services to add IB signals to remove break section cabins and to split long sections. (other examples include Eamont Jn 1938, Wreay 1935, Bessie Gill c.1939)."

"In addition a Google search for images of Low Gill station found one in early BR days with all the visible signals (the down main and down branch homes, and beyond the junction the up homes on a bracket) were all LNWR wooden posts, but with LMS UQ arms. So it would seem that for your location you could very reasonably have LNWR LQ signals, LNWR posts with UQ arms, or LMS UQ signals, and a combo of part or all of the above!"

My interpretation....

I already built a wooden post home/distant with upper quadrant arms and a junction signal wooden post lower quadrant,

The Low Gill track plan suggests that the Dillicar IB down did not have aux lamps but the Low Gill down distant did!

My layout will now include a colour light distant. I just need to work out how to model it! Yippee!!!

Thank you all for a wealth of information.....more questions to come! For example, how to model LMS colour light distant signals! Also need to know more about pre-1936 colour light signals (search lights?).

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:39 pm

Hi James

More info - and more proof that rules are made to be broken!

Another CRA respondent has pointed out, with photographic evidence, that albeit (not far) off the WCML in BR steam days there was a set of semaphore splitting distants....

Here is Ron Herbert's email (Ron was a career railwayman based in Lancashire) about the ex MR line to Morecambe, and others too:


Not on the WCML but on the former Midland line at Torrisholme No 1, 42594 approaching Torrisholme No 1 working 1M46 15.46 Wennington to Morecambe Promenade, the semaphore splitting distant signals can be seen in the back ground. Morecambe/Heysham.

There was also a set of splitting colour light distant signals on the down line at Settle Jcn, Lancaster/Carlisle.


Below is Ron's photo, his copyright so usual rules apply. It's not that clear - but you can make out the bracket signal in the distance amongst the pioneering MR overhead electrification masts...

All the best

Neil
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Neil Smith
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: LMS/LNWR 1930s junction distant signalling

Postby Neil Smith » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:50 pm

And another response for you James, and another example of splitting distants surviving well past your era. Again this is off the WCML but at what was then a very busy location of Park South, where the Barrow avoiding line joins the loop through Barrow, between Barrow and Askam...

And he also suggests that mixing LQ and UQ on the same post/doll did happen - a prototype for literally anything and everything!?!

This from author and historian Howard Quayle who is originally from Barrow, hence how he starts:

Closer to home, the Up Distants for Park South Jct were splitting Distants until well into the 1960s (and possibly later). As Mike Norris has mentioned regarding "advanced warning" of an aspect, an Outer Distant was also provided 900 yards in the rear of the splitting Distants.

This is confirmed in Vol. 6 of the SRS's British Railway Layout Plans of the 1950s (John Swift).

I clearly remember these splitting Distants (as well as the splitting colour lights at Settle Jct, mentioned by Ron). The Swift diagram shows that the Park South Outer Home was on the same post, but as a lower quadrant (which I don't remember - I recall it being an upper quadrant in the mid-1960s). The Distants are shown as upper quadrant..... so if both the Outer Home and the Splitting Distant were pulled off together, that would have made an interesting photo !!

I suspect here, however, that the Splitting Distant for the sharp curve towards Barrow may have been fixed in view of the speed restriction.



All the best

Neil


Return to “Semaphore Signals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests