Signals for Minories

billbedford
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby billbedford » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:11 am

junctionmad wrote:Could anyone suggest a company that does custom etches in small volume at a reasonable price ?


PPD are set up to do short runs of etchings and use a smaller 'standard' sheet than other companies. (their website seems to be offline this morning)
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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ianpenberth
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby ianpenberth » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:03 pm

JFS wrote:In the GW case, the real deal is available from David Geen, but for other types MSE is the only game in town - warts and all.



Mike (Masokits) Clark also does some GW signal arms and parts (pp 8/9/10, Section 11, of his catalogue).
He made some rather fine looking UQ signals a few years back, for which, IIRC, he used Alan Gibson parts. They're still listed in the AG catalogue.
Ian
PenBits Model Railways - Diesel bogie springing and detailing

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:41 am

Hi,
Yes the original fret is not so good, the ex D&S one is better (except for perhaps the back blinders) but the best MSE one is the fret for an individual signal, as it includes all the bits that the others don't. Scalelink do a fret of GWR arms, lacks the bits you need to complete and you get a lot of arms you are unlikely to need but given the pedigree (Peter Squibb IIRC) are likely to be accurate.


JFS wrote:
stephenfreeman wrote:
What I meant by being asymetrical is that the bracing in the MSE ones is out of phase.


Right - got you now. I confess that I have never really looked at the MSE ones as they look a bit heavy handed to me. On mine there is a scale 7/8" stagger between the "sides" and the "faces" - but that is so small that it is invisible even to me!

MSE is a range that certainly would benefit from an update - many of the signals - ie the wooden GW arms - bear no relationship whatsoever to the real thing sadly. In the GW case, the real deal is available from David Geen, but for other types MSE is the only game in town - warts and all.

Best wishes,
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borgrail.com

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:52 am

Hi,

Nothing to do signal arms or etchings but not sure if everybody knew that Alan Buttler of Modelu is now doing 3d printed Finials - the GWR ones even have the open slits and hollow ball!
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borgrail.com

williambarter
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby williambarter » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:45 am

Can you suggest a source for the self-adhesive vinyl you used on the arms? Presumably it is quite thin and I was wondering about using it for wagon lettering if I can cut letters out of it.

William

JFS
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby JFS » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:38 pm

Hello William,

Not sure it will work for that purpose as it is not that thin (which does not matter for a flat object like a signal arm) and it would not be easy to cut unless you are using something like a Cameo computer cutting machine.

However, if you want to give it a go, you can get it from Hannants of Lowestoft:-

https://www.hannants.co.uk/

Cheers,

williambarter
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby williambarter » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:58 am

Thanks anyway, Howard, I'm sure another use for this material which is new to me will come to mind as soon as I see some.

William

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:16 am

Hi,

Just a thought - what if....

Take a sheet of waterside transfer sheet, paint it white or whatever, cut out the letters on one of these cameo cutter type thingies - would it work?

probably not for very small print but has anybody tried it?
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borgrail.com

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Noel
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby Noel » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:02 pm

Transfer sheet can be had in white as well as clear.
Regards
Noel

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:38 am

Hi,

Yes I know that, I was just doubting such cutters to have sufficient resolution to cut out very small transfers such as the hand-written insignia so often seen on wagons. Maybe OK for larger lettering but they have never really been much of a problem anyway.

The only semi-successful method I have ever used is to print onto standard paper, then using a normal waterslide decal sheet have it printed onto that using a colour photocopier. Obviously wouldn't work for white though.
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borgrail.com

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jim s-w
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby jim s-w » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:45 am

What does the photocopier stage add? Just curious as to why not print straight onto the decal paper?

dal-t
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby dal-t » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:05 pm

Decal paper comes in both laser and inkjet varieties. I'm guessing the photocopier uses a laser print stage, the paper original having been produced on an inkjet.
David L-T

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:06 pm

Yes inkjet printing onto normal decal sheet won't work, it has to be a Laser.
Stephen Freeman
Bespoke Finescale Trackwork and Semaphore Signals 7mm to 4mm scales
http://www.borgrail.com

dal-t
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby dal-t » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:15 pm

Don't want to take this too far off the 'etching' topic, but both laser and inkjet decal sheets come in white* as well as clear, so white printing can be done, using an 'inverted' image (lettering as background, body colour as actual printing). But it is the quality of the white backing which many find inadequate (me amongst them). So you either fork out £2200 for something like this, or find a friend who already has one (but beware, the white toner itself is >£300 per refill)!

*Example of the inkjet version here, but there are many others.
David L-T

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:34 am

Just re-visiting this topic:

1) Vinyl sheet - I have good results with Evergreen Goods Ltd Matte Vinyl Sheet - self-adhesive. I think I bought it either from Ebay or Amazon

2) Further to the vexed question of stevens lattice posts - I recently had occasion to need a tall post in 7mm scale, Wizard only do them in 4mm, so I did batle with Turbocad and PPD produced the necessary. Whilst I was at it I did a few other designs. It wasn't much work to re-scale to 4mm so I got them to do a sheet of that. I find the 4mm scale version very delicate but usable and think that any repeats will be in Nickel Silver and possibly slightly thicker.

At least I have the lattice work matching if nothing else.]
seatonetch1.jpg
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davebradwell
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby davebradwell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:41 pm

Coming new to this old thread I see there is criticism of lattice front and side not lining up - I suggest this is a prototype feature. With "invisible" edge lattice, the strips were offset slightly so that the rivet heads didn't clash within the angles - it might have been 2". With flat lattice I have copied some M&H brkt posts with sides half a lattice out of step with front.

DaveB

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stephenfreeman
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby stephenfreeman » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:49 am

p328 MRJ 51 photo by G Beale - the offset in 7mm scale is only 0.5mm according to Keith Ettle.

davebradwell
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby davebradwell » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:23 pm

I didn't say offset was much but the post can't be assembled with lattices in-line. I've found a redrawn LMS drg in Peter Squib's book and it gives the offset as 1". Elsewhere in the text is the suggested 0.5mm in 7mm scale. This dimension confirmed by scaling an M&H drg. I have an M&H drg of a short doll for the Caledonian Rly at Central Station, Glasgow which is dimensioned to give 2" offset. Flat lattices seem to be half a pitch out so 9" as there would be a mega clash in the corner.

This small detail does not, of course, distract from the fine models shown in this thread and it is entirely up to the builder whether he wants to reproduce this feature. However, we might take care when criticising commercial parts.

Why does this small dimension matter to me? Because the way things were made interests me and without this feature it would have been awkward, and indeed impossible with the flat lattice.

DaveB

JFS
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby JFS » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:04 am

davebradwell wrote:This small detail does not, of course, distract from the fine models shown in this thread and it is entirely up to the builder whether he wants to reproduce this feature. However, we might take care when criticising commercial parts.

DaveB


Look closer Dave - you will see the offset IS there!

Edit:- See post dated Dec 16 2009 (is it really that long ago!)

Best Wishes,

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:32 am

JFS wrote:Edit:- See post dated Dec 16 2009 (is it really that long ago!)
Best Wishes,


Since this topic only started in November 2015 perhaps you could provide a link to the 2009 post. :)
Regards
Keith
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davebradwell
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby davebradwell » Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:55 am

Sorry, poor wording - my concern was misunderstanding of the construction by others and unfair comment on the MSE etch. In trying to make it clear that I wasn't criticising your models, I've inadvertently implied you were also guilty so I apologise for that.

I've tried to etch these things myself but have been restricted to brass so far with the corner angles looking too heavy so haven't achieved the lightness you've captured. The apparently smaller cross section of my slotted M&H dolls hasn't helped. I had a notion that chamfers might be filed on the corners but, of course, without internal support it would be hopeless as it's barely possible to handle these things without crushing them. Having just moved to PPD and awaiting my first delivery, it's encouraging to see what they can do.

DaveB

JFS
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby JFS » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:06 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Since this topic only started in November 2015 perhaps you could provide a link to the 2009 post. :)


Ah yes, well, what I meant was Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:05 pm - despite the appearance of (some of my) models, I was never one to get bogged down in detail :( !

Thanks for the correction!

JFS
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby JFS » Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:47 pm

davebradwell wrote:I've tried to etch these things myself but have been restricted to brass so far with the corner angles looking too heavy so haven't achieved the lightness you've captured. The apparently smaller cross section of my slotted M&H dolls hasn't helped. I had a notion that chamfers might be filed on the corners but, of course, without internal support it would be hopeless as it's barely possible to handle these things without crushing them. Having just moved to PPD and awaiting my first delivery, it's encouraging to see what they can do.

DaveB


Hello Dave,

I would have to say that I have pushed PPD well beyond what they claim to be capable of! And they consistently deliver miracles - I cannot praise them too highly.

Just on the corners (with their out-facing angle iron), I agree that these are important to the appearance and I have tried to reproduce this. The first step is to produce the whole doll / post as a complete etching (I simply cannot understand why the four sides should be etched separately). Of course the "hinges" at the folds need to be VERY delicate. The four sides are then folded up so that the edges of the etch remain "on show" and this gives the appearance of the angle iron. Of course it is not perfect, but it is better than anything else I have seen attempted.

For anyone else tempted to have a go, I would also point out that it is a good idea to include the lamp bracket base and the arm pivot location in the etch - these things are the devil to get in the right place and look awful if wrong.

I would definitely not use brass! It is too soft, does not etch nearly so cleanly and is a pig to solder due to heat conductivity ... apart from that ...

Here is an sample of one of the frets.

Etch Detail.jpg


And a close-up of the doll (you can see the stagger - and that it is already bent!). You can see how the folds are achieved, and done this way, it takes about half a minute to assemble one of these things!

Lattice detail.jpg


And here is the signal made from one of these to show the "hollow" corner edges

home signal.jpg


No lamps yet - where is that chap from Wales when you need him?

These "Gallows" style dolls do not have much tper on them - taper posats are a pain to draw as every cutout to make the lattice is a unique size.

Well done for defending our "Trade" but there are some elements out there selling "less than perfect" products I am afraid.

Hope that helps,

Best Wishes,

JFS
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby JFS » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:03 pm

davebradwell wrote:... Flat lattices seem to be half a pitch out so 9" as there would be a mega clash in the corner.

DaveB


Hello again Dave,

I have quite a few pics of M&H lattices, but the ones I have of the Flat-pattern posts do not unfortunately show two sides at once - but I will continue to look.
In the meantime here is one showing the construction of the lightweight corners. It also show that we need not be too worried if a few bits get bent!

M&H Post Dolls.jpg


Best Wishes,

Terry Bendall
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Re: Signals for Minories

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am

JFS wrote:And here is the signal made from one of these to show the "hollow" corner edges


And a brilliant piece of work it is! :D I particularly like the proper forked ends on the operating rods - not that I expected anything less! Having tried to build a few signals in the pas, although noting as complicated as this, it is an inspiration to do better.

Terry Bendall


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