P4 conversion work

Andrew Ullyott
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:31 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:53 pm

Hi Colin
don't know if you're still looking, but Ambis do an etch of Instanter links.
They take blackening fluid well.

Cheers
Andrew

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:00 pm

Thanks for tips John.

I have read quite a bit by Justin Newitt, but can't say that I have seen that particular topic - shall have another look.

These wagons are all conversions from existing 00 stock. This does make the weighting issue rather harder than if approaching the task as part of a new build. One of the van roofs came away without too much fuss which made the ballasting easier. To remove the roofs of the other two vans in the photo would have resulted in a fair bit of damage to the bodywork though. For now, I am going on the theory that having all the stock of the same weight is going to be better than having differing axle loadings. It does seem to make the wagons feel good and chunky even at the 40g mark - some of them weighed as little as 20g prior to this conversion work.

There are about fifty opens to convert, plus thirty other types including vans, Dogfish and brake vans. The opens pose the real challenge as a fair number are modelled without loads. Even at 40g per axle, it all adds up to quite a bit of roofing lead!

All the best,

Colin

Terry Bendall
Forum Team
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:59 am

An alternative to using strips of lead is to use fluid lead which I fix with PVA glue. Sometimes it is necessary to build "walls" round the suspension so the movement is not inhibited but it is easier than trying to cut strips to fit. I have not had any problems with expansion of the fluid lead once fixed. Anyone who wants to have a look and is coming to Scaleforum can ask to see the under side of one of the Grampus wagons on Ravenscroft Sidings. No idea what the weigh but they usually run well.

Terry Bendall

billbedford
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby billbedford » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:47 am

Remembering, of course, that 'liquid lead' has about half the density of solid lead because of all the air gaps between the particles.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1540
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Noel » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:27 am

Terry Bendall wrote:I have not had any problems with expansion of the fluid lead once fixed.


I'm a little surprised by this, since the problem is quite well documented; possibly the availability of the spaces referred to by Bill is masking it. It is a slow process, so it takes a significant time for the problem to show. However, the result of the interaction of lead and PVA is a white powder, which I believe [my knowledge of chemistry is minimal] is lead acetate, which is likely to be injurious to health if inhaled or ingested.

I use araldite for attaching lead ballast [sheet, not liquid lead], but still had a problem, which took well over a decade to become obvious, because my wooden stock boxes are homemade, using PVA. I now seal all exposed lead surfaces with more araldite.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:11 pm

Thanks All for your replies.

I use this glue for fixing lead ballast:

IMG_7818.JPG


It has proven absolutely non-reactive with lead over the last seven years. I note what Noel says and will be painting the exposed surfaces of the lead in due course. The new layout will hopefully be PVA-free, with polyurethane glue used for wood working joints.

Colin

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Will L » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:49 pm

Colin Parks wrote: The new layout will hopefully be PVA-free..


We seem to be acquiring a rather unnecessary anti PVA theme here, as it is an excellent wood glue and card glue. It is also good for sticking in glassing, and other fiddly jobs like attaching the crew to your loco. Track/ballast glued with PVA may be a bit rigid for some tastes but others are very satisfied with it. When PVA sets it produces traces of acetic acid (vinegar) and its this vinegar which causes the trouble with lead as the two together, in intimate contact, producing Lead Acetate which takes up more room than the original lead glue mix and will, as a result, physically damage models where lead has been glued with PVA into a confined space. Lead Acetate is a sweet white powder which Victorian food adulterers used as a cheep way to sweeten food, not at all a good idea. Gluing lead with PVA it is certainly not terribly good idea, and clearly licking the result is a no no, but then one wouldn't recommend licking the lead in the first place, with our without a PVA garnish. Many of the materials we use need similar levels of care. That traces of vinegar in the joints of a wooden structure would affect bits of lead somewhere in their general vicinity seems very unlikely.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 2615
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:26 am

Will L wrote:
Colin Parks wrote: The new layout will hopefully be PVA-free..


We seem to be acquiring a rather unnecessary anti PVA theme here, as it is an excellent wood glue and card glue. ... Track/ballast glued with PVA may be a bit rigid for some tastes but others are very satisfied with it. When PVA sets it produces traces of acetic acid (vinegar) and its this vinegar which causes the trouble with lead ...


And with steel... Steel rail to be precise.

This is the result of using too much PVA to fix ballast, combined with trapping the moisture in due to weights on the track whilst the glue dried.

Beeching 2.JPG


The net result is given in the file name :-(

A more full report of what happened, and what I'm doing about it will follow at some point.

So yes, I completely endorse PVA for card, wood and paper. However I'll be *very* careful about using it in other situations in future.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

JFS
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:47 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby JFS » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:37 am

Flymo748 wrote:
And with steel... Steel rail to be precise.

This is the result of using too much PVA to fix ballast, combined with trapping the moisture in due to weights on the track whilst the glue dried.

Flymo



Er, no, this is a result of using steel rail!!!! :D

I have always glued track down with PVA and none of it has ever rusted at all, on the other hand, the steel boiler of my ploughing engine contains no PVA at all, and it rusts all the time, so the PVA is not the issue!


Good luck sorting that mess out...


Edit:- well, in truth not "always" PVA as I have glued track using Latex glue in a couple of instances - in truth, you would be hard-pressed to tell any difference.

Best wishes,
Last edited by JFS on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Horsetan
Posts: 1195
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:24 am

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Horsetan » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:03 am

PVA or no, that's some pretty realistic rust.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Armchair Modeller

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:36 am

PVA darkens nickel silver rail too, if it dries in a confined space - like if you put weights over the track whilst the glue is setting. It doesn't seem to affect conductivity noticeably though.

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Oh Dear.

It really wasn't meant to be a PVA-bashing topic. Let's just call it a pro-Kwik-Fix Extra Strong glue thread! This particular adhesive, while a little stringy to use, has myriad uses and and be removed without trace should it prove necessary. It is also very resilient and I plan to use it for such things as fixing side-protection boards and other third-rail components. If you knock the joint it just springs back.

For wood working, taking professional woodworkers' advice, polyurethane is the glue of choice these days. (Or, alternatively aliphatic glue - not sure if that is the correct spelling.) Not sure what I will do about ballasting as yet.

Thanks for all the replies once again.

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2105
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Will L » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:04 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
Will L wrote:We seem to be acquiring a rather unnecessary anti PVA theme here, as it is an excellent wood glue and card glue. ... Track/ballast glued with PVA may be a bit rigid for some tastes but others are very satisfied with it. When PVA sets it produces traces of acetic acid (vinegar) and its this vinegar which causes the trouble with lead ...


And with steel... Steel rail to be precise.

This is the result of using too much PVA to fix ballast, combined with trapping the moisture in due to weights on the track whilst the glue dried.


All of Knutsford track (steel) went down with PVA, and I can't say we ever saw this problem. What did you do?

I suppose we should all remember that school experiment were you demonstrate that water, unless it is extremely pure, it will cause iron to rust. Water with PVA in it obviously isn't pure, but why did you lay track underwater?

Laying Knutsford's track (without my assistance but I think I've got this right). A layer of PVA is spread on the underlay,in our case cork, the track is placed on it and aligned. Then the balast is sprinkled over the track and a weighted flat surface was placed on top till the PVA dries. Any spare basalt is brushed away when the PVA has dried. Look no rust.

Alan Turner
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Alan Turner » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:38 pm

Colin Parks wrote:Oh Dear.

It really wasn't meant to be a PVA-bashing topic. Let's just call it a pro-Kwik-Fix Extra Strong glue thread! This particular adhesive, while a little stringy to use, has myriad uses and and be removed without trace should it prove necessary. It is also very resilient and I plan to use it for such things as fixing side-protection boards and other third-rail components. If you knock the joint it just springs back.

For wood working, taking professional woodworkers' advice, polyurethane is the glue of choice these days. (Or, alternatively aliphatic glue - not sure if that is the correct spelling.) Not sure what I will do about ballasting as yet.

Thanks for all the replies once again.



The last thing you want to use is polyurethane glue as it expands on drying. Good for tight fitting wood joints not so good when it lifts your track.

Regards

Alan

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:33 pm

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your reply. I did mean to say that the polyurethane glue would be used for baseboard assembly where clamps can be used.

All the best,

Colin

User avatar
jim s-w
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby jim s-w » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:16 am

Will L wrote:
Laying Knutsford's track (without my assistance but I think I've got this right). A layer of PVA is spread on the underlay,in our case cork, the track is placed on it and aligned. Then the balast is sprinkled over the track and a weighted flat surface was placed on top till the PVA dries. Any spare basalt is brushed away when the PVA has dried. Look no rust.


Looking at the track in Colin's picture you won't be able to use the above method as the ballast won't be deep enough

Cheers

Jim

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:58 pm

Jim is quite right.

Although it wasn't mentioned the track I am intending to build will all be on 1.6mm bases or timbering. Using Howard Bolton's method, the pointwork sleepers & timbers will be laid first with rail sub-assemblies added etc., etc..

On another note, three 10 ft opens were converted to P4 and ballasted with extra lead over the weekend. Being without loads and weighing in at only 18-19g prior to adding additional weight, it became quite a challenge to reach the target of 40g. One wagon was easier as it had a plain floor with no internal chassis members. The other two which did, were so tight for space that some weights had to be placed between the wheels just below solebar level. Not an ideal situation if wanting to fit AJ couplings!

Colin

User avatar
Steve Carter
Posts: 494
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Steve Carter » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:05 pm

Colin,
To add weight to an empty open wagon you could cut a bit of thin lead sheet to fit inside the wagon floor, scribe the lead sheet to represent planking. You loose a bit of the wagon depth but once weathered it looks ok.
Might help?
Steve Carter

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:05 pm

Hi Steve,

Yes, your suggestion is possibly the only way to add weight to extant wagons without obtrusive lumps of lead! I am reluctant to resort to this option as on most of the opens in question as they do have a representation of the angled barrow-board (or are they called 'trader boards' ?) which would be obscured. However, it could be the least conspicuous option.

On a related subject, I have been weighing some of the vehicles from my EMU fleet; my 4 COR coaches each weigh approx. 110g and the powered motor coach weighs 230g. Is this heavy enough? It does seem that they easily meet the 25g per axle spec. or should they be even heavier?

Colin

User avatar
jim s-w
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby jim s-w » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:35 pm

Before you get worried about weights and what should and shouldn't be, run the stock and see if it does what you want it to. If it does then don't do anything else.

Jim

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:16 pm

Hi Jim,

I am not getting too worried about weights, but the open wagons in question at present initially weighed only 18g with P4 wheels installed. That seemed a bit light and the challenge of making them heavier has been fun. Plus, a 40g wagon has a very reassuring feel somehow!

Colin

JFS
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:47 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby JFS » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:52 am

jim s-w wrote:Before you get worried about weights and what should and shouldn't be, run the stock and see if it does what you want it to. If it does then don't do anything else.

Jim


Well it is an interesting question, for the reason Colin says, but ultimately you are right Jim, and Colin does hide his light under something of a bushel! Here is his 4 SUB running on my layout - not too much to worry about I feel!!

https://youtu.be/6YQDHMmkbNU

Keep up the excellent work Colin!

Best wishes,

Edit:- does anyone know how to embed a youtube vid here?

User avatar
John McAleely
Web Team
Posts: 1218
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby John McAleely » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:25 am

Code: Select all

[youtube]6YQDHMmkbNU[/youtube]


becomes:


User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:48 am

The SUB looks great on your layout Howard!
Now, just how heavy does a bushel have to be?!

Colin

User avatar
jim s-w
Posts: 1892
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Starting out in P4

Postby jim s-w » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:42 am

Depends how bright the light is!


Return to “Colin Parks”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests