P4 conversion work

JFS
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby JFS » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:06 pm

John:- brilliant - many thanks!

Colin:- see Jim's comment - and the SUB looks great FULL STOP!!!

Jim:- quite bright as you can see!!

Best wishes to all,

Philip Hall
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:14 pm

I grew up with these units, and would watch them hurtling into Surbiton on an ex - Hampton Court service before slamming on the brakes to come to a stand, always in the same place. Nothing like the way the modern units creep into Egham in case they overshoot. But I have seen a few model 4 - Subs over the years, and none have convinced, until seeing this one. It is so right, and took me back many years!

Philip

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:50 pm

Edit:- does anyone know how to embed a youtube vid here?

Just to add a little to John's answer, above the window where you compose your message there is a "you tube" button, hover the cursor over it to see the syntax, click on it to insert the codes in the message.
Regards
Regards
Keith
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JFS
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby JFS » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:21 pm

Many thanks indeed Keith.

Best wishes,

garethashenden
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby garethashenden » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:26 pm

JFS wrote:
jim s-w wrote:Before you get worried about weights and what should and shouldn't be, run the stock and see if it does what you want it to. If it does then don't do anything else.

Jim


Well it is an interesting question, for the reason Colin says, but ultimately you are right Jim, and Colin does hide his light under something of a bushel! Here is his 4 SUB running on my layout - not too much to worry about I feel!!

https://youtu.be/6YQDHMmkbNU

Keep up the excellent work Colin!

Best wishes,

Edit:- does anyone know how to embed a youtube vid here?


How did you do the point rodding? It's wonderful!

JFS
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby JFS » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:36 pm

garethashenden wrote:
How did you do the point rodding? It's wonderful!


Hello Gareth,

Many thanks for the kind words. Answering fully would be a lengthy distraction from the thread, but suffice to say I only did it because someone said it was impossible and it involves some custom etching, singed fingers and lots of patience. Not something I would recommend to all! There is a fair bit of info and several pictures of construction in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1342&start=50

Don't even think about trying to "retro fit" it !!!!

Hope that helps,

Best wishes,

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Colin Parks
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:06 pm

Thanks for all your replies.

Here are a couple of shots of the wagons which have been crammed with lead. As can be seen, the one on the right has been more of a challenge due to the under-floor framing.

IMG_7821.JPG



IMG_7820.JPG


Colin

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Colin Parks
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:35 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I grew up with these units, and would watch them hurtling into Surbiton on an ex - Hampton Court service before slamming on the brakes to come to a stand, always in the same place. Nothing like the way the modern units creep into Egham in case they overshoot. But I have seen a few model 4 - Subs over the years, and none have convinced, until seeing this one. It is so right, and took me back many years!

Philip


Hi Phillip and thanks for your comments.

Now it could be said that it is Howard who is hiding his light under a bushel here: The 4 SUB's windows were all cut with the aid of a rather clever scribing template produced as an etching by Howard, details of which are to be found in a topic on the building of this model (in 00) on RMweb.

Colin

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Colin Parks
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:50 pm

Well, I got bored with wagons and am still vacillating about what sort of layout to build, so I have got this 4 COR out of storage to convert to P4.

IMG_7894.JPG



As can be seen, the model is tottering on its 00 wheels on a length out track of the target gauge. The conversion has thrown up a few interesting points:

The Hornby power bogie , Brighton Belle spare part, has axles which would allow Ultrascale wheels to be just pushed onto the existing axles. But the snag is the narrowness of the Hornby motor bogie side frames. As JFS has already demonstrated, Exactoscale wheels fit these bogies with minimal removal of plastic material from the inner faces of the side frames. However, this entails changing the axles for the 1mm dia. Exactoscale type to accommodate the wheels. I have the C&L/Exactoscale axle conversion pack E4CW 503A with 1mm axles and 2m sleeves, but this would involve pulling off and refitting the gear wheels - not sure about this!

Option two, for easy conversion with the Ultrascale wheels and not disturbing the would mean widening the side frame moulding, as Ultrascale wheels have wider tyres and just filing the insides of the side frame would just not be feasible. I am minded to go for this option, but it could have nasty implications for the third rail collector shoes, which are meant to be at 29.4mm centres. Widening the frames would throw this measurement out accordingly. Hmmm.

The last point on this embryonic project pertains to the Exactoscale wheels themselves: I have my own assembly jig which has features before. Now, when I last made up some of this make of wheels, there was a small amount of side play between the wheel bushes and the plastic moulding on the axle.

This time, with recently purchased components, there is no 'gap' and the wheel sets are making up with a slightly wider B to B measurement(17.8mm as opposed to 17.7mm). The jig cannot have shrunk, so have Exactoscale axles changed lately? The wheels sets are a loose fit in the Society's B to B gauge too. I hope this is not going to cause problems through point work...

Colin

Philip Hall
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:10 pm

Colin,

Another EMU that actually looks like a real one. Shame it's blue, though... Anyway, to your problem re width of wheels.

Have you thought of narrowing the Ultrascale wheels to 1.85mm? I have looked at a set of disc wheels and I think it might be possible to thin the tyre down from the front carefully. It might be possible to skim them down in a lathe but then you'd have to have some means of firmly clamping them down on a faceplate of some sort, so I would use a fine file on one wheel first to see if it would work. The problem might be the thickness of the Ultrascale tyre at the front face of the wheel (it might be too thin) and the only way of truly checking this out is to try.

I have also looked at an Alan Gibson wheel and it definitely wouldn't work there because the centre is only pushed into the tyre, and the recess in the tyre for the moulding is too shallow at the front to allow any material to be removed.

Another distinct possibility with a lathe might be to turn up some shouldered axles to fit the Exactoscale wheels, but then you're into removing the gears which you were trying to avoid.

Philip

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Colin Parks
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Re: Starting out in P4

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:09 pm

Hi Phillip,

Many thanks for your reply. Apologies for the livery, well actually, no - it is the colour I remember them! Here is even more blue to add to your chagrin:

IMG_7892.JPG


This unit was stabled at Seaford until withdrawal in 1972, fitting perfectly with the setting for a future layout project, though Seaford station itself is not likely to feature.

That is an interesting approach to the question. I have had a prod at an Ultrascale wheel and the front face of the tyre's internal diameter is the same as the back - 12mm as near as I can measure. The tyre must be solid metal and thus suitable for turning (or trying to!). The moulded wheel centres have two holes which could be used to stabilise the tyre while it is turned (much the same as on the prototype, where these holes are used for the same function in a wheel lathe).

I shall give this method a go

All the best,

Colin (Just discovered that if you click on the picture - it enlarges. Clicking on it twice is scary though...)

Philip Hall
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:39 pm

Colin,

Apologies if you know this already, but I felt that filing the front face of the wheel might be safer because the Ultrascale wheel is not simply a solid tyre fitted onto the moulded centre as with Alan Gibson wheels; the centre is moulded into the tyre which has a recess machined in it and stops the tyre moving, but only from front to back, and not concentrically. Thus turning might put a strain on the tyre/centre interface. This recess might also not be exactly central, as it doesn't need to be, so you may find that there is more metal at the back than the front, or vice versa, and therefore a risk of breaking through.

It will be interesting to see how you get on!

Philip

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Colin Parks
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:57 pm

After a very long interlude, an update on the 4 COR conversion. Well, it's almost finished and at least on the rails. Here is a shot of the motor coach with the Hornby power bogie and its Exactoscale wheels installed.

IMG_8028.JPG


Much filing of the motor bogie side frames was needed to allow clearance for the wheels.

IMG_8022 - Copy.JPG


The other three coaches are converted, with most of the work entailing the adjustments to the brake blocks.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:44 pm

Another distinct possibility with a lathe might be to turn up some shouldered axles to fit the Exactoscale wheels,

last time I looked the stub axle in Exactoscale wheels is 2mm OD, all you need do is remove the wheel from the stub axle and refit them to the original 2mm axles.
Regards
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Keith
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Colin Parks
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Colin Parks » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:03 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Another distinct possibility with a lathe might be to turn up some shouldered axles to fit the Exactoscale wheels,

last time I looked the stub axle in Exactoscale wheels is 2mm OD, all you need do is remove the wheel from the stub axle and refit them to the original 2mm axles.
Regards


Thanks for that advice Keith.

I did not know that the metal inserts in Exactoscale wheels could be removed! (The original Hornby axles would be too short of course, but something 22mm x 2mm dia. would do the job.)

All the best,

Colin

JFS
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby JFS » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:30 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:last time I looked the stub axle in Exactoscale wheels is 2mm OD, all you need do is remove the wheel from the stub axle and refit them to the original 2mm axles.
Regards


Are you absolutely sure about this Keith?

I always thought they were moulded in and that this was the key to concentricity. They are also not cheap so I don't fancy trying it unless you have done it first :D

Best wishes,

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steve howe
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby steve howe » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:03 pm

I don't know if this has already been posted but the website for the Black Beetle units is here:

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/blk_beetle_motors_wheels/black_beetle_p4_finescale_gauge.php

Steve

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grovenor-2685
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:42 am

Are you absolutely sure about this Keith?
I always thought they were moulded in and that this was the key to concentricity. They are also not cheap so I don't fancy trying it unless you have done it first :D

Just checked in my wheel box and I have a couple of wheelsets in there with Exactoscale wheels on standard 2mm axles, I'll try and take photos later.
The stub axles are just 2mm od tube so no more or less round than a standard axe. Moulded in or not should make no difference. I don't remember any particular difficulty pulling the wheels off the stubs.
Regards
Regards
Keith
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billbedford
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby billbedford » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:25 am

The original exactoscale wheel batches had plain stub axles, but later ones had the stub axles knurled so they can't be pulled out of the wheels.
Bill Bedford
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grovenor-2685
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:34 am

Interesting, I've never come across the knurled version, or at least not tried to remove a wheel from one.
So looks like you have to be careful.
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Alan Turner
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:39 am

Not knurled but there is a groove in the sleeve to hold it place.

regards

Alan

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Colin Parks
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:07 pm

Re. Exactosacle axle conversion from 1mm to 2mm dia.: I must say stub axles or not, the C&L conversion pack was simple and effective to use, so no need to pull parts out of the Exactoscale wheels with the concomitant risk of wheel wobble caused by disturbing the wheel centre. Here is one of the wheel assemblies:

IMG_8021 - Copy.JPG


The 2mm brass tube is just wide enough locate into the Hornby drive unit frames, though the side play is rather excessive. With the benefit of hindsight, some spacing sleeves should have been added either side of the cog moulding before fixing the wheels.

Colin
Last edited by Colin Parks on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alan Turner
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:22 pm

Colin Parks wrote:Re. Exactosacle axle conversion from 1mm to 2mm dia.: I must say stub axles or not, the C&L conversion pack was simple and effective to use, so no need to pull parts out of the Exactoscale wheels with the concomitant risk of wheel wobble by disturbing the wheel centre.

Colin


Could you show how these work please?

Regards

Alan

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Colin Parks
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:38 pm

Alan Turner wrote:
Colin Parks wrote:Re. Exactosacle axle conversion from 1mm to 2mm dia.: I must say stub axles or not, the C&L conversion pack was simple and effective to use, so no need to pull parts out of the Exactoscale wheels with the concomitant risk of wheel wobble by disturbing the wheel centre.

Colin


Could you show how these work please?

Regards

Alan


Hi Alan, see above! I was just editing my post to make it clearer when you posted.

All the best,

Colin

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: P4 conversion work

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:33 pm

I've just opened two packets of Exactosclae Mansell carriage wheels to find one lot had the centre bush projecting out, rather than in towards the axle centre. A slight adjustment with a 2oz hammer hopefully has taken care of that. I'll know if this fix is satisfactory when the paint on the "wooden" centres has dried and I have mounted them on their axles.


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