Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu May 25, 2017 7:31 pm

I have now been sent a piccy of a model of Farringdon Street in BG days.
It shows a TRIPLE turnout with all 3 roads mixed gauge, allegedly based on prototype.
I have only been attempting a tandem.
I am seeking more info.....

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:20 pm

Progress on building the mixed gauge track is slower than I wish......it takes 4 times as long to build a mixed gauge turnout as a standard gauge one and is 10 times as difficult on baulk road!

The intention for exhibiting this model has always been to have a degree of automation so the two man crew can split shifts and operate a decent schedule alone including manual shunting.

The electrics are Merg CBus and DCC so I tried to learn JMRI automation but found it hard going as self-taught.
Merg do courses so I went on one a couple of weeks ago...excellent for info, instruction quality, confidence building and companionship.

One outcome of that course is pseudo-Dartmouth in ...hold your breath...N gauge.

My cunning plan is to develop the automation in JMRI on this N-gauge bare track version. The track plan is cut down so all turnouts are correctly placed but track between is drastically reduced so N Gauge trains will only be loco + one or two vehicles...adequate for testing automatics.

Thus I can work on the JMRI caper while the course is still in my head and have it ready to transfer to the "Broad Gauge P4" real model when that has progressed enough.

Eventually I can sell the N-gauge stuff and recoup some of the cash. Friends are being very helpful lending locos etc to get me going.

N-Gauge is entirely new to me so a few tricks to learn :D

Now for the shock-horror...Terry needs to sit down with a stiff drink before reading further...I may wish to bring the N-Gauge version as well as the P4 version to S4um 2018. Is there any support or opposition to this proposal?

The final P4 layout will be about 24ft long (8.2M x less than 600mm)
The N Gauge pseudo Dartmouth is 8ft x 1ft ( 2.4M x 300mm and table top standing

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Tim V
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Tim V » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:29 pm

I thought you were bringing it as part of BS4 at S4M?
Tim V
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martin goodall
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby martin goodall » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:54 pm

Why NOT N gauge?

I am always happy to see models in any scale or gauge.

We can do without any 'precious' attitudes about "finescale standards" or other nonsense of that sort.

So go for it, Paul. And all strength to your elbow.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:18 am

Tim V wrote:I thought you were bringing it as part of BS4 at S4M?

Yes that is still the plan but I need Terry to approve the N Gauge pseudo-Dartmouth attending also.

Albert Hall
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Albert Hall » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:32 am

As a means of proving and demonstrating the principles of automation I think the scale and gauge is largely irrelevant. Probably better to be small and compact so it can all be seen within a narrow field of view. Think about how some DCC traders demonstrate their wares, usually with a very tightly curved roundy roundy test track.

Roy

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Noel
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Noel » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:13 am

If you are demonstrating something potentially useful and interesting to P4 modellers, but which is essentially independent of both scale and gauge, then you should use whatever scale/gauge combination is most convenient for the purposes of the demonstration, in my view. In this particular instance it appears that 'N' will be the most convenient, both for you, the viewers, and in terms of the space taken up at Scaleforum. There is no reason why the criteria applied to layouts should also apply to demonstrations, I feel, and an interesting demo in a "wrong" scale/gauge combination is surely better than no demo at all, resulting in no introduction of the topic to the wider membership.
Regards
Noel

Philip Hall
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:15 pm

An example of this was at Scaleforum this year, where the very interesting weathering demonstration mostly used 00 models.

Philip

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:04 pm

Paul Townsend wrote:Now for the shock-horror...Terry needs to sit down with a stiff drink before reading further...I may wish to bring the N-Gauge version as well as the P4 version to S4um 2018. Is there any support or opposition to this proposal?

Looking good so far :thumb ;)
Tim Lee

Terry Bendall
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:39 am

Paul Townsend wrote:Now for the shock-horror...Terry needs to sit down with a stiff drink before reading further


Sitting down, stiff drink to hand, (sharp intake of breath), and ... yes of course Paul. As others have said, one of the aims of Scaleforum and the other Society shows is to show modelling techniques and here the scale/gauge is not important.

martin goodall wrote:I am always happy to see models in any scale or gauge


For a few years from 2010 we did invite other Societies supporting work in other "fine scale" scales to come along and I think these were successful. The last occasion was in 2015 when we had Richard Chown's Fangfoss but there is no reason why the idea should net be revived.

Terry Bendall

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Le Corbusier » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:21 am

Terry Bendall wrote:For a few years from 2010 we did invite other Societies supporting work in other "fine scale" scales to come along and I think these were successful. The last occasion was in 2015 when we had Richard Chown's Fangfoss but there is no reason why the idea should net be revived.

Terry Bendall

I'd support that ... as a suggestion how about Gordon Gravett's Arun Quay which I am currently drooling over in MRJ. :thumb .... edit - of course in addition to Paul's N gauge demonstration model ;)
Tim Lee

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:12 pm

in other "fine scale" scales

I've never heard N Gauge called that before :evil:

martin goodall
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby martin goodall » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:32 pm

Paul has made it clear that the N Gauge layout will serve solely to test and prove some very complex and advanced software that he is developing with a view to its application to the main layout.

I understand that the N gauge version of the layout will not be developed scenically, but will simply be a testbed for the control system intended for the main layout. As such, thist N gauge 'guinea pig' layout is likely to be of great interest to fine scale modellers in all scales.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:07 am

Ta for messages of approval and no objections to the N-Gauge display.

So Scaleforum 2018 should have the embryo 25 foot Broad/Mixed Gauge Dartmouth in P4 with some track operating and preliminary scenics AND the 8ft N-Gauge pseudo-Dartmouth to demo the proof of automation options.

A further complication is that the P4 version needs to be DC/DCC switchable in part since early exposures will require BG locos lent from friends who only use DC. It will take me a while longer to produce my BG DCC locos. I am trying to devise a safe method of having part of it on DC and part on DCC. Again this will be proved (or not!) as safe on the N-Gauge version.

Now to explain the reason for wanting partial automation:
The physical handling of the P4 model is designed to allow load/travel/erection by just 2 bods.
To allow full manual exhibition operating two bods would be required so no provision for relief, necessitating 2 more chaps with double the hassle of juggling diary commitments etc. as well as doubling exibition expenses.

The intention is that the electronics will allow some trains to be automated while just one operator runs another train or shunts. If you have paid attention to this thread ;) you will know that there are 2 companies running trains to Dartmouth...BG Totnes & Dartmouth Rly and NG South Hams Rly from Plymouth.

I have seen the practicality of this mixed shunting and automation on the "Missenden St Marys" model used for the MERG JMRI courses. The automation takes care of conflicts, signalling, interlocking and reasonably realistic slow station approach/stop/start.

Together with my automated traverser fiddle yard ( already proven system ) this should allow a sequence in excess of half an hour with one operator. A further concept ( as yet untested ) should allow a quick changeover ( about 3 minutes hiatus ) and then to continue for a further half hour. Thus the other chap should get a full hour off to look round the show, do his shopping or have some grub.

The N-Gauge pseudo-Dartmouth will allow debugging of all this stuff in parallel with building the real P4 model.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:32 am

Terry Bendall wrote:
Paul Townsend wrote: I stated that it is impossible to design a mixed gauge tandem turnout whether it be in baulk road or transverse sleepered track


As a matter of interest did the GWR ever manage to do this?

Terry Bendall


I forgot your question.....too busy building models etc !
Here are the pix of a mixed gauge triple turnout built in 7mm scale for a model of Farringdon Street on the Metropolitan Rly.
Triple MG turnout at Farringdon_IMG_2526rsz.jpg

The builder is braver than me to do it as a triple as opposed to tandem....I am too lily-livered to make a single gauge triple work reliably in P4 so have never tried, let alone mixed gauge!
IMG_2527.JPG

IMG_2528rsz.jpg


I suppose he has made the point that my original contention was wrong. (That you can't build a tandem with all 3 roads mixed gauge.) It is however too late to incorporate this into Dartmouth.

Phil O
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Re: Dartmouth in Broad Gauge era

Postby Phil O » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:57 pm

A very tasty piece of S & C and some excellent modelling, too boot. Thanks for sharing.

Phil.


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